Did they drop Latin because of a shift to praying in vernacular languages for the comfort of the worshipers, or because they were worried that someone who hates Catholics might be offended by the sounds of the Latin tongue?
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a synagogue praying in English if that’s what the people there prefer. Or a mosque, though it’s not really up to me if that’s Ok or not.
But someone saying “your language is offensive to others” is hateful, plain and simple.
Yes, Reform Judaism, the largest US denomination, also prays almost entirely in English.
I think technically it was both.
I’m going to need a cite for that claim. What I can find by googling is that after the Second Vatican Council the church made various “inculturation” changes like adopting some local customs and vernacular tongues in order to “remove a barrier between people and their faith”. I see nothing about being worried that Latin is offensive.
Meanwhile those objecting most to antiZionism as antisemitism are not the bulk of Jews, ADL notwithstanding, but Trump’s GOP.
Yes these are the allies in the fight:
Gift link on the neonazi problem of the GOP.
They can support Israel and probably do. But they are the threat. Enabled by Trump’s GOP.
Oh. To be clear - this is not about the far left and right coming together - it is about the clear integration of Nazi admirers in positions of power and putting Nazi dog whistles in official government output and policy, stifling objection and claiming how concerned they are about those hundreds of students on a campus and their obvious antisemitism.
Sorry for triple posting but this survey addresses a key point made by the OP.
The OP’s point:
Only one-third of American Jews say they identify as Zionist, even as nearly nine in 10 say they support Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish and Democratic state, according to a new survey conducted by Jewish Federations of North America.
The findings of the survey reveal that American Jews do not have a mutually agreed-upon definition of Zionism — with those identifying as anti-Zionist and those identifying as Zionist ascribing sharply different meanings to the term.
For example, about 80% of anti-Zionist Jews say “supporting whatever actions Israel takes” is a tenet of Zionism, while only about 15% of self-identified Zionists share the belief, according to the survey.
That’s nothing. You should see 4 jews try to decide where to go out to eat.
Moderating:
Stop with the efforts at wisecracking. This is not the thread for it. Comments such as the above can easily be interpreted as a slur.
You were one of the specifically-named persons in our earlier moderation guidance. It’s time to take that seriously. Next overstep, you’ll be thread-banned.
Trusting the US government was a big mistake. Granted, I don’t think the average Kurd had any way of knowing that it was a mistake at the time, but there’s a reason so many Americans have a deep distrust of their own government.
If you meant that there wouldn’t be a “probably” in that statement. The US government, especially under Trump, is doing its level best to erode what little they have left.
Yes, absolutely the US government should uphold and abide by all the treaties signed by all the Natives.
Yes, well, the other side of the disagreement disputes that.
As I am American I’d just as soon not be put on spot to proclaim solutions to determine who is more oppressed/terrorized. The Jewish side of my family was always non-Zionist, believing that the institution of a modern state of Israel prior to the arrival of the Messiah was wrong and would be punished (eventually) by the Almighty. The gentile side of the family largely didn’t think about it and didn’t care.
Personally, I would love for a mutually beneficial solution to be found and for both Israelis and Palestinians to feel safe and secure in a place they can regard as their homeland. It doesn’t look very likely at the moment but I’m a cock-eyed optimist.
There’s about 345,000,000 other people living on those lands now. Numbers matter. Where do you plan to relocate a third of a billion people? Or I suppose everyone can pay rent to their Native landlords, if that’s what the Natives want, but given the sort of inbred stupidity we see on display amongst so many so-called adults in this country I’m not sure that would work out.
There’s a difference between “this is what should happen in a truly just and moral world” and “this is our current reality”.
I actually have seen that very thing - conflating criticism of the Israeli government with antisemitism - but it has been very rare in my experience. Split about evenly between Isrealis who are, shall we say, extremely supportive of their current government (a sort of “my country right or wrong” attitude) or are right-wing Christian religious fanatics.
I view this as fundamentally different than the activity you point out: Israelis criticizing their own government. Just as there’s a difference between Americans criticizing their own government and Americans who want to prosecute political parties other than their own for treason and imprison people who disagree with them.
In other words - bigots are going to bigot. Unfortunately for the rest of us, there are some people who are both powerful and bigots in this world.
…because calling that noise “music” is beyond the pale…?
That’s actually been the case for as long as I can remember. I think the term used to be “self-loathing Jew”. Dates back to at least the 1940’s and arguably longer than that.
My point exactly. Israeli Jews aren’t going anywhere. The past is in the past.
I’m just annoyed by the fact that any (non-native) American would have the temerity to accuse Israelis of colonialism (in Israel proper, not the West Bank) - as if they were not the direct beneficiaries of colonialism each and every day.
@Broomstick, giving benefit of the doubt, you may have jumped back into the thread without reading the large amount of moderation in it - but 2/3 of your post was off the topic: the Kurks, the distrust of the Trump/American government, and the current state of the lands inhabited by Isreal. This thread isn’t about relitigating the conflict or the historical state, but about how the actions taken by Israel can be discussed with or without it automatically being viewed as anti-semitism or anti-Zionist.
Going forward, respect the question of the OP and do not go off topic.
@Alessan, please do not continue the hijack and off topic posts. You may have a point for a different thread, but again not this one.
I’m giving us another quick cooling off period, I will re-open the thread in 10 minutes.
This topic was automatically opened after 10 minutes.
Heh, the above mod note mentioned being “anti-Zionist.” That seems to indicate that (the royal) we still haven’t agreed on a definition.
Speaking as a poster, not a mod, I’ve noted in many of these threads that arguments against Zionism and anti-Semitism often end poorly, even on this board where we tend more rational than not.
We don’t agree of the definitions of the terms in question, so we end up talking right past each other, frustrating all sides.
Much like your comment in the OP @Leaper - I’m pretty sure there is an actual line in there somewhere, however fuzzy, but I have zero confidence that a consensus on where to put it is in any way achievable, even given good faith on all sides.
And that IRL, there is ample bad faith individuals and groups pushing the line back and forth to serve their own interests.
Therefore, in general and speaking to the OP further, I think it’s better to talk about specific, individual actions taken rather than falling back on such fuzzy definitions and lines. Boiling down a wide range of attitudes, emotions and actions down to simple labels kills any nuanced understanding of the situation.
Not that I’d choose myself to draw the lines either, since almost half my extended family live in Israel, since my aunt and my cousins moved in the late 70s, and I have a first cousin once removed currently doing his mandatory military service.
Back to the OP topic, I don’t wade much into anti-Semitic mud and weeds, but when people try to be anti-Semitic while dressing it up as merely criticism of Israel, what form does it usually take? I’ve seen a bit of anti-Semitic stuff, and I’ve seen a lot of criticism of Israel, but I’m not familiar with what the overlap looks like. Like, what are the giveaway clues or phrases?
The recent events surrounding the musician Macklemore are probably a good example. He not only criticizes Israel, but also has a history of wearing a mask of the stereotypical Jew with the hook nose.
Then maybe start with the Macklemore incident as an example, which I alluded to in the OP. Specifically, the reactions it’s engendered on some social media platforms, which I created a couple of polls over.
Some people who support Palestine are taking to social media to praise Macklemore for his pro Palestine stance. Some are also directly amplifying his voice in particular and buying his music in order to further promote his point of view on this topic. They are pleased that a high profile person and incident is bringing greater attention to their cause. The fallout may have even inspired the large cash donations to Palestinian aid groups by Sheeran and Robert Kraft.
Others on social media see this and remember the incident linked in my OP, as well as other things I don’t know much about, like claiming that the student group that inspired his statement was overtly anti Jewish, and have decided that the people in the previous paragraph are ignoring antisemitism at best and are antisemitic themselves at worst. They see support for Macklemore of any kind as a dismissal of his purported antisemitism on the part of these people.
Who’s more right, if either?