Right. We must assume the worst in all cases until we know for sure. This thing over here is exactly like that thing over there, and I won’t hear otherwise until we have evidence to the contrary.
Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I can’t tell.
Basically, I’m saying that, due to so many lies already, I don’t trust the assertions coming out of the Israeli government and IDF (nor the US government/military). So if there was a single incident on camera, we don’t and can’t know if there were others, and official assertions to the contrary tell us nothing.
You can also say that about the bodies making the accusations. I don’t believe that there are any neutral or objective parties involved in this conflict in any way - everyone has an agenda, and governments do not have a monopoly on lies. The world is full of well-meaning (and less well-meaning) people who believe that the ends justify the means in support of their “allies”.
Strictly speaking, no. They can come to believe they are wrong about their religious beliefs as a result of finding compelling evidence that convinces them otherwise. But they are unlikely to do so when their religious beliefs are constantly reinforced by their insular community.
That’s the problem with religious fundamentalism, whether Islamic or Messianic.
It’s a pipe dream under any government. There’s too much bad blood and distrust between the parties for anything other than a hard separation to work; it’s best that the two groups interact with each other as little as possible. Maybe a hundred years from now, when tempers die down a bit, we’ll be able to discuss some sort of limited federation.
This conflict will not be resolved in our lifetime.
That would seem to argue for some kind of externally enforced “peace”. The alternative sounds like another hundred years of slaughter (or one side “wins” and genocides the other).
We know that there are Israeli journalists and publications that oppose Netanyahu’s administration. We know they expose human rights abuses committed by the IDF. We know this because that’s how we learn about many of the abuses.
What your analogy does is ignore that there is a functioning system of checks and balances in Israel. It may not be as perfect as you would like, but they are not accountable to you, or me. They are accountable to the citizens of Israel. You can feel however way you like about that, but you probably should resist making blanket statements and exagerated analogies about things you admit knowing little or nothing about.
No, it could also mean some sort of Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza, followed by as much self-enforced separation between the people as possible. But both sides have to agree to end the conflict for that to work.
I agree. I don’t think I did this. I haven’t asserted that there is necessarily an epidemic of raping Palestinian prisoners, I’ve suggested that this is possible and we don’t, and can’t, know for certain whether it’s an isolated incident or an indicator of other similar incidents.
Anyway, as always happens with these threads, we’ve wandered far from the OP, and at record speed. Wasn’t this thread about antisemitism?
I’d like to make a claim: Israelis are a nation distinct from Jews in general. It is perfectly possible for someone to hate Israelis without hating Jews, and it is also equally reprehensible. Hating someone for their nationality is wrong, period. Hating Jews is wrong, hating Palestinians is wrong, hating Israelis is wrong.
So don’t say, “I’m not an antisemite - I only hate Israelis”. I agree you might not be an antisemite, but you’re no better than one, either.
I will endorse this, as unlikely as it seems right now.
I’ll endorse this as well!
I’m just going to say this once and then drop it.
You painted an analogy to an insect infestation. Claiming “we can’t know for certain” is not the get-out-of-jail-free card you need it to be.
Rapists are vermin. I have no problem at all analogizing rapists to insects.
Do you?
Once again, I leave it to anyone following this thread to judge for themselves whether this is a question that merits a response.
That quote in no way compares Jews to insects. Quicksilver, the question doesn’t necessarily merit a response, but your response to this merits an apology.
For myself, the confounding factor is that I first heard about Zionism from my seventh-grade WASP-y Social Studies teacher who taught it neutrally, and I first heard about anti-Zionism from Bob Sheldon, the owner of Internationalist books. He was a fervent anti-nationalist, which included anti-Zionism; and he was also Jewish. It was a long time before I encountered the idea that anti-Zionism was antisemitic, or even before I met anyone who felt strongly anti-Zionist who wasn’t Jewish.
Israel has a relationship to the United States that’s not very similar to our relationship to other nations with genocidal leaders. Heavy criticism of its leadership, and of its prevailing politics, is not necessarily a double standard, given that relationship.
This might be perfectly possible, but I wonder if it ever occurs in the wild.
I’ve seen it online. A recurring reddit trope I see is that, supposedly, Israeli tourists to other countries are disrespectful, and I routinely see posters respond by characterizing Israelis in general as arrogant/supremacist/disrespectful/etc. Supposedly, they say, Israelis are taught that they are special and superior and God’s chosen and everyone else is inferior.
Obvious hateful bullshit that damages the legitimate criticism and opposition to atrocious Israeli policies just as much as hateful bullshit from Israeli extremists (and other anti Palestinian bigots) damages the legitimate security concerns of Israelis.
Sure, I know that happens. I just wonder how often it happens when the complainer doesn’t also carry some ugly stereotypes about Jews in general.
I’ve seen some of these posters explicitly say things like “Jews are fine, it’s Israelis that are terrible”.
Huh. Live and learn. All kinds of horrible people around!