Is wanting to ethnically cleanse white people from America where they have lived for hundreds of years inherently racist? Yes, of course it is. How is that even a question?
If you’re asking whether creating independent Native American polities in North America is inherently anti-white, then no, it wouldn’t be. But giving the whole thing “back” to Native Americans and either making non-Native Americans second class citizens or deporting them? Yes, that would be super racist.
re CUAD - honestly researching more into them they are more clearly across the line than my initial understanding has been.
I have no issue labeling them as an antisemitic group and not only for their praise of the “armed struggle” of October 7.
But considering that statement praising Sinwar - I do have to step back - from a Palestinian perspective I think you can see the actions against many people just trying to live a life in Gaza best they can as the same sort of evil as October 7 was. Larger scale. Is someone praising Netanyahu’s leadership at least as much a Palestinian hater as those of CUAD are Jew haters? (I know you are not a fan of him but you were a promoter of this sort of response from 10/8 on …)
So you think Native Americans, if they had control of the county, would implement ethnic cleansing? Do you believe this is because of something negative about the culture of Native Americans, or something genetic, or some other explanation?
Great point. Netanyahu has probably killed, or caused to have been killed, many more people than Sinwar. Trump leaves both in the dust. Is praising Netanyahu or Trump inherently bigoted?
These are claims of the UN.
I will concede that they did not say that rape of females was SOP. More accurate would be to say that the sexual abuse and sexual assault of females by the Israeli military is SOP.
Yes, Hamas has done horrible things, but their name isn’t in the thread title.
Well, there’re the incidents at Megiddo and Ktzi’ot prisons (among others).
Rape of prisoners is breathtakingly common all over the world. I’m surprised anyone would doubt this is happening in their specific country, especially in a conflict as bitter as this one.
Shifting gears, I can only come at this issue in the narrow context of American clinical psychology, where anti-Semitism has become a real issue. My husband, who is not Jewish, did graduate school work at an Orthodox Jewish school, and had a Jewish mentor, which means he’s been more plugged in than me to the experience and viewpoints of Jewish academics. He’s always sending me stuff they wrote.
Here’s what I call tell you. Many therapists have tapped into something called “decolonization therapy” and are weaponizing it against Jewish clients. Some Jews who have sought treatment for trauma from October 7 have been forced to agree with their own therapists that they are privileged colonizers and not the real victims. They are told that they can’t really heal until they accept this paradigm. Even more horrifying, this viewpoint has been used against Jewish people with Borderline Personality Disorder, one of the most vulnerable groups of people with mental illness, for whom invalidation of trauma is a key driver of them developing the disorder in the first place. It’s like throwing gasoline on a fire.
This is anti-Semitic.
A training affiliated with the American Psychological Association a couple years back included as examples of bigotry: “racism, sexism, and Zionism.”
This is anti-Semitic.
I think it’s clear that “Zionism” can mean a lot of different things depending on the person who holds those views and it really doesn’t tell you a lot about whether or not they are bigots. I don’t believe it’s anti-Semitic to be against Zionism, but I think it’s anti-Semitic to expect Jews to be anti-Zionist and I think it’s anti-Semitic to think that being Zionist automatically means support for genocide. I don’t believe progressives should be holding their Jewish friends or other politicians to a purity test where they have to denounce Zionism.
I think a lot of people have not bothered to question why having their own country is so important for many Jews and that the lack of trying to understand is indicative of anti-Semitism. Last year I attended a Jewish community annual event and they focused on these teenage girls who had survived October 7 and they brought them to the US to do this camp thing and it was so obvious how much it meant to these girls to be able to be openly Jewish in peace. Anyone who can’t understand why that matters to the Jewish community has not tried hard enough to understand the issue.
I didn’t “get” anti-Semitism until I saw all this stuff happen on the left, I’ve been pretty shocked by the lack of empathy I’ve seen from certain progressive factions, and I’m appalled by that because while I think what is happening in Gaza is a horror, I’ve got plenty of empathy to go around.
So yeah that’s pretty much how I think about it.
Israel has about 10 million citizens.
3 million are ashkenazi Jews (Jews from Europe)
3.5 million are Mizrahi & Sephardi Jews (Jews from the middle east)
2 million are arabs
200k or so are ethiopian jews
about 500k citizens are neither Jews nor arabs
The rest are an assortment of the above groups mixed together.
FWIW, the US has more ashkenazi Jews than Israel (6 million vs 3 million)
Which makes the fun fact of Israel being a country of quite high diversity.
Riddle me this…
There are currently a number of horrific human rights abuses, displacements, ethnic cleansing and real genocides taking place of tens and hundreds of thousands of innocent lives involving women, children, elderly, men, etc. Many more if we look back over the past 20 years.
I’m pressed to recall discussions here, or elsewhere, at the level of depth, breadth and detail (including mentions of actual names of victims) when it comes to any of those compared to the minutia being debated when it comes to Israel.
Not only that, but the galling conviction of so many critics of how Israel has conducted itself not just in this latest conflict but throughout the years of its existence. People who have never once been to the region, seemingly never even cracked open a history book, but nevertheless are absolutely convinced of the moral superiority in their understanding of who is right and who is wrong.
I wonder why that is.
And Ashkenazi Jews are also Semites (the term was originally coined to describe them after all). The only people who dispute this are Nazi tier conspiracy theorists peddling the debunked Khazar Hypothesis. It’s an extremely common dog whistle.
I don’t wonder… I know.
It’s be cause up until the past few years, Israel was counted among the nations of the modern / developed / advanced / western world (whatever term you prefer, IMHO they are interchangeable), and those other places where those other genocides are taking place were not and are not considered members of that group. At the rate things are going, Israel is losing, and may have already lost, the international consensus that it is a member of the former group.
As posted earlier by @Babale (I mean I know you know the answer and was being rhetorical)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism#Double_standards
Its like how the US gives close to 4 billion a year in aid to Israel and people act like that is bankrupting the nation and is totally unacceptable. But the US gives about 3 billion a year combined to Egypt + Jordan, and people have zero issue with that.
The Jews need a homeland where they are the majority, seeing how badly the world hates them.
Thailand has a bigger economy than Israel, and nobody claims Thailand secretly controls the US government. Nobody claims the dairy industry secretly controls the US government, despite the dairy industry spending more on lobbying than AIPAC.
Correct. There are all sorts of obfuscations that people try, but at the end of the day this is precisely what it all comes down to.
Exactly. It’s no coincidence that anti Zionist talking points fit old anti-semitic canards to a tee.
And sometimes the mask just slips:
Yes, we all know that “AIPAC” means “Jewish billionaires who control America”. It’s hardly subtle.
Well duh, this is the major human-rights-abuses situation that the US has been actively supporting and enabling for decades, and this is the one where a lot of media and advocacy groups have been constantly drawing attention to the issue to encourage that US support. By contrast, there is no “Boko Haram Islamic State in West Africa lobby” trying to influence US views and policy on the genocidal crimes of Boko Haram, for instance. Naturally Americans are going to be a lot more aware of the Israel-Palestine situation than of the many genocides and other abuses in developing countries that seldom make US news.
Did you also think it was unfair or unjustly disproportionate when US and world media had a similarly huge response to the October 7 massacre by Hamas of 1000-2000 Israelis, a far smaller number than that of the victims of Boko Haram in Nigeria, to take just one example? If not, than why is it okay for US media to overlook and ignore “a number of horrific human rights abuses, displacements, ethnic cleansing and real genocides taking place of tens and hundreds of thousands of innocent lives” in favor of a disproportionate amount of media attention given to Palestinians attacking Israelis, but not okay when the disproportionate amount of attention is given to Israelis attacking Palestinians?
Well, yeah, I thought it was pretty nauseating that on October 8th there were people celebrating Hamas’ brave acts of rapesistence across the country. You don’t see people celebrating “decolonization” when the Boko Haram murders civilians.
True, but that’s because Thailand is of no real importance to the United States (I don’t mean that disparagingly, just that America has no particular reason to think of Thailand.) Meanwhile there are many millions of evangelical Christian Americans who are convinced by the Bible that support for Israel must be a high American priority for Revelation-apocalypse-and-blessing reasons, and vote accordingly. Which, incidentally, ties into yet another complicating factor; Israel is a big deal partly because evangelical Christianity in non-Israel nations makes it a big deal.
To use an analogy, when Boko Haram does it, it’s like if the guy who has a rap sheet a mile long including multiple violent crimes knocks over a convenience store and shoots the clerk. When Israel does it, it’s like if an upstanding member of the community, well respected and a “pillar of the community” does the same thing.
Except that this analogy fails miserably, because Israel has a longer “rap sheet” than all other countries on the planet combined. Because the UN is incredibly biased against Israel and has issued more resolutions denouncing the Jewish state than all other states combined.
I’d certainly argue that being unable or unwilling to call out this particular double standard (or worse, coming up with excuses to defend it) is indeed a form of antisemitism.
[nitpick]
Ashkenazi Jews are from Eastern Europe.
Sephardi Jews are from Western Europe. After the Reconquista of Spain the ones in Spain were given the choice of either converting to Catholicism or leaving and quite a few left. Some went back to the Middle East, some went to the Americas, such as South America and Canada. (There are some in the US, too, but they are a minority of Jews here)
Mizrahi Jews basically never left the Middle East/North Africa
More or less - one must keep in mind that Jews have always (well, at least since the destruction of the Second Temple and the Great Diaspora) moved around, inter-married, etc.
There are other, smaller groups of Jews like Beta Israel (Ethiopia/Horn of Africa), a group in India, a small group as far east as Beijing…
Right. The “Khazar hypothesis” is a bigot’s explanation of why millions of Jews aren’t actually Jewish, even though they are.
Contrary to what the bigots think, Jews are not a separate species. And a certain amount of gene mixing has always occurred between Jews and the people they live next to/among. Which is why Eastern European Jews tend to look a bit Slavic, Western European Jews tend to look French, English, etc., and so on. They’re all still Jews. Much ado is also made under that theory about “mass conversions” or some such… but a converted Jew is a Jew.