At what point in suspect action should police be justified in ceasing to care about his life?

[Leaper]

“But listen to the defenders of the police in these latest cases… do you really want to live in the world they are promoting? One where you must immediately acquiesce to any request/order give by anyone in a uniform, without question or complaint… under penalty of death if you don’t comply, or comply too slowly for them? Do you really mean to give people in uniform the power to kill, maim, imprison any person simply because they questioned why they were being confronted or resisted rough treatment? Is the uniformed officers word to be deemed absolute, without recourse… and his/her power to punish to be deemed limitless?”

• Reader at Talking Points Memo

[John_Bredin]

@Shodan

Case in point - Eric Garner. I have applied the same kind of sleeper hold used to subdue Garner scores if not hundreds of times. 100% of those who lost consciousness from it recovered in thirty seconds or less with no after-effects. In the whole history of competitive judo ranging back more than a hundred years, there has never been a documented fatality from a judo choke hold. Yet they applied that same hold to Garner, and he died. Why? Because he was not a relatively young, fit competitor - he was grossly obese, and suffered from heart disease, asthma, diabetes and breathing problems. I see no indication that the police stopped caring if he lived or died - they used methods that 99.99+% of the time have resulted in a life-sparing outcome. But that was the 00.01 time.

Except as least one of those risk factors – gross obesity – was visibly apparent, which changes those back-of-the-envelope odds in a way that a “hidden” health issue wouldn’t. A lot of people – myself included – would say that police officers shouldn’t reflexively use a technique because it’s relatively non-lethal to healthy people when the subject is visibly not healthy. IMHO, an officer could take refuge/cover/comfort in that hypothetical 99% if the subject had a bad heart because he couldn’t reasonably know he had a bad heart, but it’s disingenuous to do so when the subject was grossly obese. :dubious:

[MrDibble]

@Magiver

Anyone who physically engages a police officer is a threat. The idea that an officer signs up as a punching bag is seriously misguided because of what has already been pointed out. They cannot afford struggles for a gun.

Then don’t have them carry guns as a matter of course. There, problem solved.

[Shodan]

@MrDibble

Then don’t have them carry guns as a matter of course. There, problem solved.

That does not address the problem of people using the police as a punching bag - it makes it worse, obviously.

Regards,
Shodan

[MrDibble]

@Shodan

That does not address the problem of people using the police as a punching bag - it makes it worse, obviously.

I don’t agree. I think it’s a feedback thing - by being tooled-up, the police invite and create their own tooled-up opposites.

[Shodan]

So you believe that suspects are more likely to attack police if the police are armed?

Regards,
Shodan

[MrDibble]

@Shodan

So you believe that suspects are more likely to attack police if the police are armed?

More likely to use deadly force and weaponry, yes.