So from a philosophical and rational standpoint are atheism and the belief in the supernatural always contradictory ?
I am an atheist, skeptic and rational. I always thought that meant excluding supernatural phenomena, druidism, shamanism and other forms of mysticism. Now these beliefs and practices don't technically proclaim GOD exists... or not absolutely so. Many value humanity and human "power".
Why do I ask ? Well my skeptic side is being heavily damaged by certain recent events, including what clearly seem unexplainable events. (Tarot card person that has shown to be 90% accurate in all her "readings". She doesn't charge money too. Scary stuff.) I consider myself pretty well informed and I have learned how tricks are done by false soothsayers. I love the skeptic dictionary site for example. Plus I have a lot of friends that dabble in all sorts of paganism, spiritism and alternative stuff. They make sense and don't seem irrational in may points... though they are pretty weak in others.
So was I always a wishy washy atheist ? Am I being duped and will see the light of reason again ? Or can atheism and rationalism co-exist with a bit of mysticism ? Personally I still have no doubt god doesn't exist. There is no ryhme or reason for the universe... still that doesn't exclude spirits and magic does it ?
If you accept one form of supernatural phenomenon (S. P.), there would be no reason, a priori, to reject some other S. P. So I would make the more general claim that if you reject one type of S.P., you should reject all forms.
And I’m defining supernatural to be something that cannot be understood scientifically.
according to an Atheist, everything is “natural”. The term “supernatural” is a contradiction in terms. it means “above nature”. Everything is part of nature, nothing is above it, since there is no god.
I disagree. If I accept that God exists, it in no way means acceptance for any or all other supernatural phenomenon. Because I have one belief based on unreasonable conclusions(:)), in no way means I must have 10. You are basing your assertion that God doesn’t exist due to lack of evidence, or so I would assume; which is reasonable. If someone could read Tarot cards accurately, even though you can’t prove how; you can at least show results. Results add some credibility and at least add some rationale for a belief. I don’t believe in Tarot readings, but if someone showed me, I might. I don’t know if I would consider it supernatural though. I think there might be a natural explanation for it.
IWLN:
If you make the claim that God exists, and accept it w/o any scientific evidence, you cannot then disqualify someone from saying “God is behind the ability of Tarot Cards to predict the future.”. That person’s statement is equally as valid as yours.
I agree totally to that. I can’t disqualify anyone from believing or saying anything. By your explanation though, since I believe in God I should believe in everything. If I don’t believe in Tarot, I shouldn’t believe in God? Did a spoon-bender tell you that?
Atheists needn’t believe that science is the One True Epistemology, John Mace, though I agree that any system I can think of that would discount gods to the point of atheism should also discount the supernatural as well. I guess it depends on how we define “supernatural”. I’ve read at least one mystic who felt magick was a science (Crowley) that wasn’t like natural science. He actually stressed something more than analogous to the scientific method in practicing magick. I don’t believe he posited actual gods in the traditional sense like Christianity, but I am not especially well-read in him in any case.
IWLN: Actually, I said you can’t reject the possibility of other S.N. phenomena, not that you actually had to believe in them. Or, that you can’t justify criticizing someone for believing in S.N. phehomena that you may not believe in.
Well I don’t think you can justify criticizing someone for any beliefs unless they throw it out for debate. I do reject the possibility of some other S.N. phenomena outright. Others I just label unlikely. So what your saying is you, not believing in God gets to reject all S.N. and I who believes in God is only allowed to not personally believe in say spoon-benders; but I can’t reject them outright? Because…I’ve lost the right somehow to rationally decide? Do I get a handicapped sticker with that?
They are never contradictory. They are often contradictory for particular atheists who, in addition to their atheism, also hold a number of beliefs about the supernatural.
In my case, I think talking about things in terms of them being “natural” or “supernatural” is a waste of time whose only contribtion to the debate is pointless semantic confusion.
Crash! Burn! Ouch! I asked for that. So, if it is proven to you in impartial, repeatable, scientific lab testing that Tarot readers are “real”, then you can’t reject God, you can only not believe in him? So you’re one lousy “death card” away from losing your hard atheist status. Then you can get your own sticker. Hey, this is the first time I’ve ever wanted Tarot cards to be true.
Apos:
Further to your comments, I’m sure someone will pop up and declare that certain S.N. phenomena are less crazy than other S.N. phenomona-- eg, ESP vs the existence of Leprechauns. What they actually mean, though, is that one is more likely to be a natural phenomenon than the other. So, yes, this can often come down to a semantic confusion.
DtC:
Note the “from a rational standpoint” qualifier in the OP. I would agree that people are capable of picking and choosing all sorts of combinations of supernatural beliefs. The question is, can that be rationally justified? I still say no.
I think this is pretty similar to the tangent we went off on in the Polycarp Pit thread recently.
Well part of my confusion was that I simply lumped dieties and organized religion in a big pile together with all other sorts of “mumbo jumbo”. Even if one does believe in Tarot and Hand Reading… you know most are quacks or fake. My problem is this one apparently legitimate one.
That is when it dawned on me that what we term the "supernatural" has no direct link with believing in God... semantics or not... there are things that are pretty hard to explain and then label them natural.
