Atheism and superstition

[Chief_Pedant]

@Shodan

But modern religion of the sort I am thinking of does not believe that one can compel God to do miracles on command.

Regards,
Shodan

Bargaining is not required; simply a demand in the name of the one who makes the rules:
" I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name."
John 16:23 NIV

“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.”
John 15:16 NIV

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”
Matthew 7:7 NIV

“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”
Luke 11:9 NIV
Jack (or G. K. ) notwithstanding.
Further debate about what the Bible says versus “modern religion” would hijack the thread. I can assure you these promises are the substance of many a message in many a modern pulpit. And while a caveat is frequently added that God is not your personal magician, the motivation for the caveat seems to be more a qualifier in the event of an un-asked-for result than it is a proclamation that a very clear statement has no substance in reality.

That which happens in violation of natural law is the same thing whether it’s called magic or miracle.

[TWDuke]

@bikebloke

It’s very bad luck to be superstitious.

I don’t get it. I mean, I acknowledge the attempt at humor, but I don’t see why you quoted my entire post. What’s the connection?

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@tomndebb

Did you have any particular reason for ignoring two separate Mod instructions to keep this fight out of this thread?
If you feel a deep need to argue it again, open a new thread.

[ /Modding ]

You might be on his ignore list.

[JThunder]

@ivan_astikov

If religious people read James Frazer’s The Golden Bough as diligently as they read their “holy books”, they’d realise that “touching wood” for good luck is simply religion at it’s most basic form.

So what? The vast majority of religions do not advocate touching wood for good luck, so that objection strikes me as irrelevant.

[Shodan]

@Chief_Pedant

That which happens in violation of natural law is the same thing whether it’s called magic or miracle.

Then put it this way - suppose one prays “Give us this day our daily bread” and the prayer is granted. What natural laws do you think have been violated?

Regards,
Shodan

[Czarcasm]

@Shodan

Then put it this way - suppose one prays “Give us this day our daily bread” and the prayer is granted. What natural laws do you think have been violated?

Regards,
Shodan

Clarification, please.
Does the bread magically appear on one’s table, or is it bought at the store using hard earned wages. If the former, it’s magic. If the latter, it’s something that is going to happen whether one prays or not.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Shodan

Somewhat the same thing with numinous religion. Superstition and magical religion believe that there are ways to compel the dieties to act on your behalf, thru ritual or by sacrificing and thereby creating an obligation for the diety to act. The next step away from magic and towards the next stage of understanding is to believe that sacrifice doesn’t necessarily force the spirits to do what you want, but is part of a process to get on their good side so they will do it anyway. The next step, and the step that the modern interpretations of the Abrahamic religions have taken, is to recognize that God/the gods are not that sort at all. You can’t bargain with God, as Jesus teaches in Matthew 4:7. C.S.Lewis expresses it by saying that the belief that you can force God to do what you want is like looking at the ocean and immediately thinking about making it into cups of tea.

I’ve a hypothetical for you. What would you call a system with a mortal magician who likewise cannot be bargained with or demanded of?

[ivan_astikov]

@JThunder

So what? The vast majority of religions do not advocate touching wood for good luck, so that objection strikes me as irrelevant.

The point was, that a simple case of believing x will produce y, like touching wood for luck, does not become any more likely, no matter how complex you make x and y.

[JThunder]

Your remark demonstrates my point. None of the major religions in the world teach that merely believing something makes it true. Quite the contrary; they maintain many people have erroneous beliefs, which means that mere belief does not create truth.

Using this argument as an attack on religious people is severely misguided, to put it mildly.