Radical environmentalism probably does qualify as a religion; the difference is, it hasn’t split off to form a seperately named ideology, like communism vrs socialism.
I don’t know what "radical environmentalism is (how is it different than regular environmentalism?) but it may very well follow a sociological model similar to a cult or religion. wouldn’t surprise me a bit. So what? Do they try to control their members religious beliefs and practices? Can one be a “radical environmentalist” and also be a Christian or a Wiccan?
It was just Stalin’s cynical and disingenuous justification for eradicating his religious competition. Stalin was motivated by egoism, not by atheism. Communism didn’t seek to reject religion, only to stifle religions other than communism.
Atheism in itself is not an ideology and nobody kills for it.
I never said they were. A sign of a healthy secular government is a thriving, diverse and unfettered religious life among the people.
Those of you suggesting that Communism necessitates atheism, I wonder if you’d give me your views on Liberation Theology.
Daniel
Like I said, it isn’t well defined. That being said, I’ll take a stab at it. The segment of the movement that : Ignores evidence, acting on faith; deifies the Earth/environment/“Gaia”; fears/hates unbelievers; has a strong, ideology-specific worldview ( one based on faith, not evidence ). Since it isn’t a fully seperate, named ideology yet, pehaps something like “protoreligion” would be a better word.
Here’s examples of what I consider normal and radidal environmentalists :
Normal : Company A should stop dumping waste in the river; people drink that stuff. Also, I like forests, so don’t clearcut everything. Finally, perhaps we should do something about global warming before there’s a major ecological collapse, and millions of people starve.
Radical : People should give up all technology, and live in harmony with nature like the native cultures slaughtered by the capiltalist followers of patriarchical Sky-Gods ! We must return to the earth-goddess religions, stop eating meat, and give up corrupting, capitalist materal goods !
I see what you mean and to the extent that the movement is organized it shows some elements of what some sociologists call the “subcultural evolution” of cult formation.
That’s fair enough. I would identify myself with the first group but not the second. I often find it frustrating when right wing pundits try to classify any and all kinds of environmentalism as “extremist” or “radical,” so I wanted to make sure I knew what we were talking about. Yes, there are nutters who take it too far and too seriously and who mystify it into a religion.
After thinking about [b[lib’s** distinction between religion and theocracy again, I think he’s right. It hasn’t been religion per se that’s been the historical plague on humanity, it’s been theocracy and the exploitation of religion (or quasi-religion as in the case of the two most destructive ideologies of the 20th cenuries) by governments. When any religious ideology is given the reigns of power we get problems. That’s why it’s best for the government to be completely agnostic and silent on those matters. If the government’s doing it’s job right, people will be plenty religious in plenty of ways and it should never be a problem.
Let’s review some history, please.
There’s no doubt that Soviet Communism established an officially atheistic state. This may be because it sprang, horrified, from a thousand-year European tradition of blending politics and God. However, a full third of the USSR’s population, long after the Communists gained power, professed belief in a religion without fear (cite:http://www.answers.com/topic/religion-in-the-soviet-union), and the USSR maintained (with only minor lapses) diplomatic relations with the overtly religious Vatican, India, Pakistan, Israel and Cuba (which was never more than nominally irreligious) [cite: http://www.ibike.org/cuba/library/CU%20Jewry.rtf ] . Communism would have been happy if religion were the greatest of its opponents.
Chinese communism, practically from the beginning and even today, tolerates Christianity, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism and Islam (cite: http://sg.travel.yahoo.com/guide/asia/china/ ). There’s nothing resembling full religious freedom there (ask the Falun Gong) but there’s no sign that the State sees any religious belief as an automatic threat.
The idea that communism is a prerequisite for atheism assumes that everyone believes that the free market’s invisible hand belongs necessarily to God, which is, let’s just say, a matter of faith. That atheism is a prerequisite for communism is an idea that supposes illiteracy in those that might search their holy books for economic advice.
The OP is affirmed. We can organize our Earthly societies on a continuum ranging from the perfectly cooperative to the perfectly competitive, and God doesn’t care much which, according to his loudest proponents. What God says to each of us, privately, is another matter.
That should have said, the subcultural evolution model of cult formation. There is more than one model.
According to Stalin, communism derives naturally from atheism. See the section about historical materialism.
Well, I agree with you, but Stalin disagreed with us. Surely, we’ve long ago put to rest both old canards in our debates here: religion is not the cause of Inquisitions and atheism is not the cause of massacres. Evil men may use any arbitrary philosophy to underpin their causes. Wouldn’t you agree?
Let’s be clear: I do not think that communism necessitates atheism; I think that Stalin thought that communism necessitates atheism. Do you see the difference?
I don’t quite have the time right now, but if you were representing Stalin’s opinion, that’s different. It wasn’t clear to me from that post I quoted that that’s what you were doing. Atheism might be requisite for Marxism, or Marxism in its original form, I don’t think it goes much further than that.
I would agree–but I’d also say that Catholicism was the cause of the Inquisition, and dialectical materialism was the cause of Stalin’s purges. Ideas exist only in people’s heads, and in those heads, they cause acts.
It may be technically more precise to say that thinking about Catholicism caused certain people to commit the Inquisition, and similarly for the purges; but I think the rough way of phrasing it is accurate enough, inasmuch as there’s no alternative explanation of ideas that is coherent.
Daniel
Oh, I absolutely see the difference. Stalin, however, represents one strand of belief in communism, not all strands; and Communism, unlike Catholicism, isn’t tied to a specific hierarchy, so the liberation theologists are every bit as much a part of the Communist tradition. (I guess I should therefore be more specific re: the Inquisition, and say that Catholicism as understood by Pope Gregory IX led to the Inquisition)
Daniel
Well, he’s certainly wrong about that. Atheism is simply the disbelief in gods; it doesn’t even need to be materialist or rationalistic. You can believe in the spirit world, psychic powers and black magic and still be an atheist. Anarchist, libertarian, fascist…really, you can be almost anything but a ( honest ) theocrat and be atheist.
Besides, “Good judgement” and “Stalin” were not exactly comrades; if he says communism naturally derives from anything, I’d consider the source.
I specified him, referenced his work, quoted him, explained how he tied them together, and linked to his essay. How could I have been more clear that I was talking about Stalin’s view?
We agree. 
And we agree. Likewise, of course, a theology need not be a belief in sky pixies, or an invisible bearded man, or the cause of hurricanes. As far as I’m concerned, when both sides drop all the strawmen, then we can march together in the fight against ignorance. Just because we have a different covenant does not mean we lack a common goal. We both need to stop summarily dismissing the other side as somehow inferior, evil, or stupid.
Yes, sorry; I was not trying to state that anyone who believes in protecting the environment was an “extremist”; I was specifically talking about the PETA/Earth Firsters who seem to have created a religion out of environment-worship.
Good luck- we can’t even do that on this board, let alone in real life.