Atheism does not equal communism and vise versa

As is often the case when discussing atheism versus religion, a predictable knee jerk response is to bring up the likes of Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and Pol Pot as an example of murderous atheists. (As was the case in this thread)

Instead of hi-jacking the above thread completely, I thought perhaps this could be a topic for discussion on its own thread. Hopefully we can settle this argument once and for all (being optimistic here). What follows is my opinion on the subject.

Personally I couldn’t confirm if Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, or Pol Pot were atheists. It is assumed they were atheists because they were communists, and everyone knows a communist is an atheist…or do we?

If you study the works of Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels, you will find that there is no declaration of communism being an atheist movement. There is simply no philosophical/theological discussion, thought, or opinion whether there is a God or not. Rather, it seems to me they were simply looking at religion, and specifically Christianity, on a more clinical and historical sense.

Now that is interesting. Indeed if you read the passage closely, it could be read as if they are saying there will be no religion in a communist government. If you put such a spin on those words, then it starts to look similar to the first amendment of the US constitution.
More to the point though, if you read the Communist Manifesto, you’ll find Marx and Engels spend a miniscule portion on the topic of religion. Except for a few additional words here and there where the Pope is lumped with the Tsar as an oppressor, the above five paragraphs is all that is given to the question of religion in the communist manifesto. To claim from this that atheism is the underlying message of communism is a gross exaggeration. The manifesto and other writings by Marx and Engels is frankly a tedious read on workers rights and the equalization of property to the state for the benefit of the workers. The rejection of religion is a rejection of another branch of the oppressors of the proletariat, and they spend less than 1% of the manifesto on this. There is absolutely no mention of atheism or the declaration there of.

Just to drive this point home, the following are the first ten steps once a communist government establishes itself in a given nation:

There is nothing regarding religion or the abolition there of in the first 10 steps of a new communist nation. (I confess to even agreeing to item 10 to a certain extent.)
The thing about Marx and Engel’s works, if you read through it, is that they did have some interesting ideas, ideas that spread to the Western democracies in America and Europe. Workers rights movements lead to unions and ultimately better working conditions and wages for millions of people. Not that I am pro-union today, but I could imagine being pro-union back at the turn of the century when workers truly were exploited. Women’s suffrage movement was also influenced by the communist doctrines. Indeed, I find it comical how Marx and Engels actually speak of “Free Love”. Sounds almost like they were hippies, and this in a document published in 1848!
The point is, I think we can safely say that the communist Utopia as imagined by Marx and Engels was probably very different from the communist nations that eventually appeared. Neither Marx nor Engels lived to see the birth of the Soviet Union, wonder what they would have thought of Stalin?
Which brings us to the three notorious despots, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot. What happened? How could these megalomaniacs get to be so powerful?
In my opinion, there was a major flaw in the communist ideology. Again, when you read the manifesto, once a nation becomes communist, they don’t allow for any other political opinion or thought.

It certainly sounds ideal and incredibly naïve. “Power” didn’t disappear, as was predicted, it concentrated. The prediction that communism would eventually lack “political character” made the need for “checks and balances” to be implemented in such a government redundant. Since there was no checks and balances designed in to the communist system of government, what eventually emerged, once the experiment came to fruit in the Soviet Union and elsewhere, was a concentration of power amongst a very few. It started to look a lot more like an absolute monarchy rather than a brotherhood of labourers. The problem with absolute monarchy, unless you’re the king, is that the state of the nation and the well being of the population is determined by the mental disposition of the ruler. Depending on your luck as a peasant, you could be living in terror under Ivan the Terrible or relative enlightenment under Elizabeth I. The power concentration found in the communist nation proved to allow for the same exact problem as was found in an absolute monarchy. Ironically, instead of the anticipated Utopia, communism just ended up replacing one set of oppressors with another.

Let’s turn our focus on what was going on within these communist regimes, more specifically the Soviet Union. It is true that Stalin persecuted leaders of the Russian Orthodox Church. But his motives was not religious or “atheist” as the case may be, but purely political. Remember, when the communists took over, the Tsar and his family were executed together with other people classified as the Bourgeoisie (the oppressors), and as the manifesto teaches us, the church leaders were included under the category of “oppressors” of the proletariat. Well, there Stalin had his excuse to pursue what he probably felt was a real threat to his power. Simply put, the church had some sway over the Russian people, and it was a threat to Stalin’s rule in particular and the communist government in general. So, the religious leaders were persecuted. It would be wrong to assume that religion in the Soviet Union disappeared completely, (the re-emergence of the ROC after the collapse of the Soviet Union shows it was alive and well), what was deconstructed was official organized religion within the Soviet Union. Realistically, it wouldn’t be possible to stamp out individual religious sentiments. Although I’m sure they tried. With the elimination of the organized church, the Soviets started the indoctrination of the people. The Red Book replaced the Bible, and in a sense, the state, with the father figure images of Lenin and Stalin became a new sort of religion. And like religion, it was a brainwash where intolerance (and ignorance) of the capitalist west was taught and indoctrinated, especially in younger minds.

Did Stalin murder a huge number of Soviet citizens? Yes, that is undeniable.

Did he do it in the name of atheism? No, he did it in the name of communism.

Was communism an atheist movement? No, it was a political movement, where abolition of organized religion was a minor part of the whole movement.

Why does atheism seem to rise to the top of people’s conscience when communism is discussed or mentioned? Interesting question, which leads us to the next topic.

Where did this image of the evil of communism and the emphasis of atheism in that mix come from in the West, especially the United States?
I have an opinion on this as well. Allow me to elaborate.

McCarthyism. Need I say more? Perhaps I should.

The McCarthy witch-hunts of the 1950’s caused some considerable hysteria in the United States. In this climate, it gave the American religious leaders a soapbox to stand on. And they were quick to paint the red brush over atheism and with it, secularism. It is no coincidence that “under God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, or the words “In God We Trust” added to paper money in 1955, and those same words replaced the “E Pluribus Unum” as the national motto in 1956.

The McCarthy hunt for “Godless communists” created a strong religious affirmation and started an undercurrent of Christian fundamentalism in a nation that had been mostly secular, at least at the government level.
Basically, you could blame communism for the US government becoming religious.

You’d think the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990 would have had a re-emergence of secularism in the United States. Indeed, I think it did, especially during the Clinton presidency. Clinton’s re-election for a second term despite the Lewinsky scandal, was to me a clear sign that secularism was back on the rise in the US. That is, until the unfortunate events of 9/11, 2001. Needless to say, it was a field day for the religious right. The Godless Commies were gone, but here suddenly we have the re-emergence of Christianity’s most ancient historical enemy.

To conclude, religion, or the lack there of, in the communist movement was actually only a very small aspect of the ideology. Religious indoctrination of the people was replaced with communist indoctrination. No freedom of thought, as would be required to be a free thinker. The cold war hysteria contributed to the exaggeration of communism being an atheist rather than a political movement and is also the cause for religious penetration into a government previously constitutionally free of religion.

Okay, there you have my opinion, long winded as it is.
Look forward to seeing some thoughts on this.

Jack

Atheism = Communism? I certainly hope not. I’m an atheist and a libertarian. I wouldn’t want to have to start wearing Che T-shirts…

You’re wrong on the vice versa.

Marx was clearly atheist. You missed this because you’ve not read much Marx. He spelled this out in works other than the Manifesto.

Please check out the Economic and Pholosophical Manuscripts of 1844, for one.

Also check out Lenin, who was atheist in thought as well as deed. Likewise check out the behavior of nearly every Communist regime on the planet, all of which have been officially atheist and hostile to organized religion to varying degrees.

I’ll not comment about the rest of your OP, since much of your premise is quite flawed.

Uh… Maybe because Stalin outlawed religion? I don’t know about other communists, but generally atheism is pretty much the state religion.

Not to start a whole other argument that’s been done ad nauseum, but atheism is most definitely not a religion - not in any way, shape, or form.

Here’s from Wikipedia on Marx’s Religion is the opium for the People

These words by Marx don’t seem compatible with religion.

You need to read the OP again because the premise has nothing to do with whether Marx or Engels were atheists.

I found the OP quite interesting, actually, and though there may be points of contention, I find your objection flawed because it inextricably links organized religion and theism. Communist states are interested in squishing or thoroughly co-opting (and then squishing) rival power bases (and organized religion certainly counts), not theism per se.

Or can theism only exist within a framework of organized religion?

If it is to be a focus for that concentrated power that Communism is interested in repressing, yes.

I completely agree with the OP. Communism is trotted out by religionists as their lone defense against the long history of intolerance, wars and atrocities which can be attributed to religion. It’s a specious defense, though, because Communism itself was a religion (just not a theistic one) and behaved accordingly. Citing Communism as an example of true secularism or honest atheism is completely spurious. Stalin, et al, did not kill people because they were motivated by atheism.

Communism has always struck me as being as much a religion as Buddhism or Christianity. It has prophets (Marx, Lenin), minor prophets and scholars (various academics), schisms and factions (Maoists, Trotskyites), a promised paradise (the classless society where we will farm in the morning and philosophize in the evening), an eschatology (revolution and the class struggle), a devil (Capitalists), and even a God of sorts in the impersonal forces of history. It interprets history as being part of a grand scheme leading to an ultimate clash between good and evil. Like all religions it gives meaning to peoples lives by locating them within a larger meaningful universe.

The so called atheism of communists doesn’t strike me as real atheism, but rather the contempt of any religion for those that don’t follow the One True Path. When people talk about the ills organized religion has visited upon society, someone’s always bound to bring up the fact that certain atheist philosophies like communism or extreme nationalism (fascism) are just as bad, if not worse. What these people don’t realize is that these philosophies are quasi-religions, and arise from the same place in the human psyche as all organized religion. That’s why I prefer to think of the baleful effects of non-empirical belief systems in general.

Another vote for Communism = religion; the Communists slaughtered and oppressed theists for the same reason Christians and so forth do; to eliminate rival religions. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck; and communism looks a lot like religion.

I never said he wasn’t an atheist. You missed this because you did not read my post.
I used the Manifesto as an example because this was the document used in the establishment of the communist party, or movement.

Again, I am not arguing whether Marx was or was not an atheist, only that the abolition of religion in communist ideology was only a very small part of the overall philosophy. But since you have brought up this piece of work, allow me to bring to your attention the following:

Don’t know about you, but it sounds to me Marx was rejecting atheism as well, and suggests that communism replaces atheism.

Again, had you bothered to read the OP, I haven’t made any claim that Lenin was not atheist. I should also point out that Lenin was not responsible for mass genocide either. Stalin was.

Officially non-religious, yes, but so was the original constitution of the United States.
Hostile to organized religion, yes, as pointed out in the OP as it was seen as a threat to the communist ruling party.

Thanks for proving McCarthyism is still alive and well with this comment.

But under that analogy, radical environmentalism could be considered a religion. It has major and minor prophets, schisms and factions (are animals servants or higher life forms for being more natural?), a promised paradise (the Gaia balance where humans live in perfect tune to the environment around them), as eschatology (the promised Peak Oil collapse, Global Warming, etc.), a devil (Capitalists), and most definitely a God (the enivronment itself, and possibly animals as representations of God in natural form). It interprets history as a fall from the Garden of Eden (the pristine wilderness of the ‘noble savages’). And like all religions, it gives meaning to people’s lives by showing them why their lives are lacking meaning and purpose: they’ve been led astray by the ideals of civilization.

And yet, in this thread, some people roll their eyes at that contention when pushed forward by Michael Cricton.

So what is the standard by which we call something a religion? Because most of the times I see the “remember that Communists are athiests!” canard drug out on this board, it’s in respone to atheists blaming all of the horrors of humanity upon religion.

I agree with the last couple of posters, and I’ve known some religious Communists over the years. But while the purges of Stalin et al were not motivated specifically by atheism, the link between atheism and Communist governments historically is pretty clear.

Actually, Stalin himself tied communism to atheism. in 1938, he wrote Dialectical and Historical Materialism, in which he outlined how Marxism compels a materialistic worldview. In fact, the first sentence in the essay is “Dialectical materialism is the world outlook of the Marxist-Leninist party.”

He quoted Marx’s afterword from Das Kapital as justification, and then wrote:

Thus, the outright rejection of religion and the embracing of atheism for the sake of communism.

He cited the need for social revolution (and all its accompanying slaughter) by quoting from Marx’s Selected Works:

Communism and atheism are not the same thing, but then neither are theocracy and religion.

Here, by the way, is the text of Dialectical and Historical Materialism. Readers can decide for themselves whether Stalin believed materialism to be essential to communist goals and methods.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm

Certainly Atheism does not equal communism. I doubt anyone but the most deluded would make that claim. Communism certainly attempts to co-opt all other sources of power, making the state the ultimate…and they are extremely jealous masters.

To my mind communism and religion are two faces on the same coin…those that wish to break mans spirt and make bind him to something ‘better’ than man himself. The collective or heaven. Mystics of Muscle vs Mystics of Spirit and all that. The eternal struggle to destroy mans mind and all that. :wink:

Anyway, I agree with those saying that Communism doesn’t equal atheism…its merely a bi-product.

-XT

Or prerequisite.

In which direction?