Atheist v Agnostic

I dont understand how anyone can be either an atheist or a true believer.

We dont know there is a God and we dont know there isnt.

We sit here on a speck of dust hurtling through an infinite void. We dont know why we’re here or where we’re going.

There is no evidence to suppose the laws of physics apply outside our Universe. There could as easily be a God as not.

The position of the agnostic is the only respectable position to take.

Atheists are no different from believers. Both positions require faith in the sense that they require a mental leap from the known to the unknown. At least believers have the decency to admit they are taking a leap of faith.

xanakis

Most atheists I know of define atheism as “lacking belief in God or gods”, not some kind of leap of faith along the lines of “I KNOW there is no God!” Lacking belief in God is known as “weak atheism”; believing that there is not a God is known as “strong atheism”. “Strong atheists” are to some extent a straw man, although I suppose you will find a few out there. Also, I, like many “weak atheists”, am a “strong atheist” with respect to specific definitions of God; for example, I have a positive disbelief in God defined as “the author of the inerrant and infallible Scriptures of the Protestant Christian Bible”, since to me the Bible is patently errant, as it is contradicted not only by known facts of history, archaeology, and science, but in fact contradicts itself. I also find many important and well-known definitions of God, including the God of classical Christian theology, to be logically incoherent or impossible on various grounds. None of which renders some other definition of God to be logically impossible; but so far, I haven’t found any evidence which convinces me of the existence of anything I would call “God”. Finally, agnosticism is sometimes defined as meaning that we can’t ever know one way or the other if there is a God. Actually, I think that’s too strongly against theism, in a way–while we can’t prove there is not a God–defined, say, as the intelligent Creator of the Universe–I see no reason why evidence could not be found in the future to definitively prove that there is such an entity. I just don’t think such evidence has been found.

I would also direct your attention to this article, which discusses these things in more detail.

I was going to be good, but I had to take the bait. It’s not so much a leap of faith, but one of reasoned logic. There is no evidence whatsoever of a God, so I can’t be bothered going with the attitude of there may be a God - until there’s some sort of evidence. No-one insists that I should leave open the possibility of there being a fluorescent pink unicorn running around, unless there’s some sort of credible evidence, do they?

O no not this again:

http://www.thehappyheretic.com/06-01.htm

The whole essay is the best one I have seen in years dealing with this issue.

Are you sure we can’t know there’s a God, he seemed pretty real when I met him.

Agnosticism seems to require a bit of faith. You have faith that God cannot be known. An atheist merely lacks any belief in the existence or nonexistence of God.

from http://www.m-w.com
Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know – more at KNOW
Date: 1869
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
So, it seems the faith you mention is not necessarily true of all agnostics (although I agree that some may have that belief).

So whats the difference between a weak atheist and an agnostic? None I would suggest.

The article that I was recommended to read is all very well but it is incorrect.

A theist believes there is a god, an atheist believes there isnt a god. So the question of belief still arises.

There are proofs of the existence of god. If you choose to be swayed by these proofs then you will be a theist. If you are not so swayed then you will be an atheist.

If you consider the evidence inconclusive then you will be an agnostic. But, note, the agnostic position is the only one that does not require belief of some kind.

I disagree. I believe that agnosticism takes the least amount of faith because the existance of God can neither be proven nor disproven.

Theists believe in God. They can not prove He exists, but they have faith that He does. Atheists believe there is no God. They can not prove that He does not exist, but they have faith that He does not. Both sides are based on a belief that can not be proven, a belief that just makes since to that particular individual. Agnosticism takes the least amount of faith because it’s basic tenet is “I don’t know”. Agnostics don’t have to have faith in anything. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It can help to prevent the blinders caused by faith (whether that faith be in existence or non-existence).

Gigobuster, I can’t really argue with Judith Hayes, though I do think her “thought experiment” was overly simplistic. I remind you that the usage of a word is everything. Her point about agnostics being a-theist is really just semantics. For the purposes of this discussion we should review MEBuckner’s post, but define according to common usage, i.e. atheist=“stong atheist” and agnostic=“weak atheist”

[Quote]
originally posted by vorfod
I was going to be good, but I had to take the bait. It’s not so much a leap of faith, but one of reasoned logic. There is no evidence whatsoever of a God, so I can’t be bothered going with the attitude of there may be a God - until there’s some sort of evidence. No-one insists that I should leave open the possibility of there being a fluorescent pink unicorn running around, unless there’s some sort of credible evidence, do they?

There is evidence in God, but every bit of it is anecdotal. I cannot prove to you that he grabbed me by the brain one night and said “hey Z, how you been?”. I can tell you this however. Magnetout and numerous others can tell you similar stories, as can the Bible and other religous texts. I have met to meet anyone claiming to have been touched by the fluorescent pink unicorn.
-Beeblebrox


“Arthur hoped and prayed that there wasn’t an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction there and merely hoped that there wasn’t an afterlife.”

I disagree, you made some pretty strong assertions up there in the OP, can you prove them?

The problem with this is it assumes you can put a name to every possible god. This is an assumption that agnostics will not make. All you have to do is add to the list “a god unknown or unnamed” and the process comes to a halt. An agnostic cannot tick that off.

Quite simply Theists and Athiests require faith to justify their position. Agnostics don’t.

I thought the unicorn was invisible anyway.

Ooh, the dictionary definition. I’m shaking. Remind me again how they define evolution?

Amongst those who care enough to actually put a technical definition on the words, as opposed to a popular definition, agnosticism is the belief that any God would be fundamentally unknowable. Not unknown, as in “I don’t know if there is one” but unknowable as in “the perceptions and perspectives of a God would be beyond my ability to comprehend them”. Atheism, however, is not believing in God. That “not believing” may be strong or weak, as indicated.

This means that agnosticism and theism aren’t on the same axis. One can be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist. Myself I am an agnostic atheist - I don’t believe in God, but I do believe that if I am wrong, God would be fundamentally unknowable.

Place me at (-7.3, +8.4) :wink:

xanakis - you are a weak atheist bordering on weak theist railing against both strong atheists and theists. This is a reasonable enough position to take. There is no need to bring agnosticism into it at all.

pan

Ummm, no. This isn’t strictly true. This conundrum can be resolved with a bit of etymology.

A theist believes in the existence of a god, or gods. The prefix “a-” simply means without, or not. Therefore, an atheist is simply a person without a belief in a god, or gods. Atheism does not necessarily imply a belief that god does not exist. (Although that is the view I hold, I did not come about it through simple faith; I came about it through reason and logic.) In fact, if you look at this from a strict etyomological viewpoint, all agnostics are, in fact, atheists. Since they are unsure a god exists, they must necessarily lack a formal belief in deity; lacking a formal belief, one becomes, by definition, atheistic. Also, it should be noted a person can be an atheist simply because she’s never been introduced to the idea of a god.

This seems like a fine distinction, but it really goes rather deep.

I consider myself a weak atheist because to me agnosticism implies a certain philosophical mindset that I do not have.

Even though I accept the possiblity I may find evidence that God exists tomorrow, due to the resounding lack of evidence so far I am so doubtful of the existence of God that I find it ridiculous to even entertain the notion, except as an intellectual exercise.

One flavor of agnosticism is that we cannot know whether there is a god. My response: So what? Either God exists and interacts with the material world, in which case His influence should be measurable, or it doesn’t matter. I’m not going to waste my time pondering possible Gods that cannot possibly have any effect on my life (or afterlife–if souls exist, given that they must interact in some way with my material body, then they must be measurable as well.)

So, while I technically maintain an open mind, and will try to treat any evidence for the existence of God fairly, I think I’m just one step over the line of indifference. That’s why I call myself an atheist rather than an agnostic. It’s more of an emotional distinction, I think, rather than a fundemental divide in philosophy.

You may regard my position as irrational; you may consider the distinction I draw between weak atheist and agnostic irrelevant. However, you might do well to back down from your own dogmatic position re the superiority of agnosticism and listen to people’s opinions. I speak from experience. I used to be militantly against the “agnostic” label, calling agnostics nothing more than wimpy atheists. In no small part due to participation at the SDMB, I have been persuaded that there really is a spectrum of atheism and agnosticism. The posters here are educated, articulate and thoughtful. Use them as a resource, not an audience.

ag-nos-tic: One who holds the view that the ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable.

Kabbes, Agnostics believe God is DEFINATELY unknown, and as such, PROBABLY unknowable. just probably.

Athe-ism 1: A disbelief in the existence of deity, 2:The doctrine that there is no deity

Uncle Beer, atheism is active disbelief, not merely “apart from theism”.

Ya’ll may wish to rewrite the dictionary in favor of your personal “technical” definitions, but I don’t choose to.

Can we back down from semantics and etymology now?

Podkayne, I may not agree, but in no way do I consider your position irrational. In fact, that is where my difference of opinion lies. Faith itself is outside of rational thought. I have faith that there is a God. I can not prove his existance using empirical thinking, nor can I provide a concrete reason for his exitence by the same method. I simply know.

This is not a rational thought, but I hold it to be true all the same.

-Beeblebrox


“An SEP,” he said, “is something that we can’t see, or don’t see, or our brain doesn’t let us see, because we think that it’s somebody else’s problem. That’s what SEP means. Somebody Else’s Problem. The brain just edits it out, it’s like a blind spot.”

That last paragraph was aimed more at the OP, but I appreciate your thoughts nonetheless.

Uh, I subscribe to an etymology of courtesy – if somebody calls himself a Preterist, and can define what he means by Preterism, then he’s a Preterist to me.

It would seem to me that the case between Agnosticism and Pragmatic Atheism (the “weak” variety – 'tain’t weak at all, just differently founded than Dogmatic [“strong”] Atheism) is quite simple. The Agnostic is convinced that, at least at our present state of knowledge, whether there is a god or gods is not a knowable question. The Pragmatic Atheist takes a more positivist approach: if you have no evidence, or inadequate evidence, to determine the existence of something, then the reasonable conclusion is that it does not, in fact, exist.

There is inadequate evidence to convince most reasonable people of a race of small grey aliens inhabiting a planet around Zeta Reticuli who have mastered interstellar travel and in consequence abduct humans and perform numerous experiments on them. Reasonable conclusion is that whether such a planet exists, and if so whether it has a race of aliens meeting that description, no such aliens with the characteristics described exist.

The Pragmatic Atheist reviews the evidence regarding each proposed god and determines there is inadequate evidence to assume he or she exists. He or she therefore forms the presumption that such a deity does not exist.

This is the classic use of presumption in a quasi-legal formulation: the thing I will take as true until and unless evidence demonstrates otherwise. If I were, for example, to show up at David B.'s doorstep, ask him to join me at the nearest funeral home, and raise the person there, subject of a previous autopsy as David knows, from the dead, and ascribe my abilities to something my God has equipped me to do, David, knowing my probity, would accept this as fair-to-middling-good evidence that I am indeed acting in a capacity for the God I’ve been telling him about the last two years. But until and unless I come up with adequate evidence to demonstrate that god’s existence to David, he will maintain that no such god has been proven to exist, and the reasonable assumption is that neither he nor the small gray aliens exist.

The question is not one of absolute certitude but of how a reasonable man deals with what he considers insufficient evidence. And while I have quite adequate evidence to prove God’s existence to my own satisfaction, I am quite willing to grant that that evidence, which is in nature either subjective or subject to strong critical interpretation, may be inadequate to prove God’s existence to my atheist friends.

I generally find this a poor argument. Dictionaries, as I’m quite certain Beeblebrox is aware, are descriptive, not prescriptive. They simply collect and list examples of usage, which is why Merriam-Webster contains entries for both the noun “leverage” (dating from 1830) and the verb “leverage” (dating from 1937). Language changes.

I believe that it is theoretically possible for the existence of a god to be revealed. I believe that all current arguments for the existence of a god fail to demonstrate that one or more exist. I am an atheist. If you have a problem with that usage, too bad. The fact that a dictionary says that atheism is a dogmatic denial of God’s existence doesn’t make that true concerning me any more than the fact that I have an FCC operator’s license makes me a radio DJ.

Uh…methinks I lost sight of whatever it was we were debating. Damn, I hate it when debates get mired in splitting sematic hairs.

Gimme a sec…Hmmmmmm. Oh, yeah.

**

Xanakis, are you honestly saying that FAITH, whether it be theistic or atheist (aka “strong atheism” or whatever) is disrespectable?

-Beeblebrox


“There was a point to this story, but it has temporarily escaped the chronicler’s mind.”