I will be the first to admit there are quite a number of Christians who are very vocal about their religion. However my observation has been and the reason for my question is in especially internet discussions the Atheist seem very quick to insult Christians for their beliefs. I just don’t seem to see it happen much the other way around. Mind you I am talking about general conversation websites, not religion specific ones.
Also keep in mind that I did not intend this to evlolve in a discussion on wether Atheist are right or wrong in what they think. I just get the feeling that there is a feeling of superiority amongst the non-believers when it comes to those who do. The comments I see are usually not a direct argument about believing in God, but rather shots taken at the intelligence level of those who mention God. It also seems that Atheiest tend to make sure that no mention of religion in any context goes unanswered. The reason for the question is to try to understand the motivation for the disdain and “hate” of Christians. If I can better understand the reason, I can better understand the view point. After all, tolerance of each other is a worthy goal, isn’t it? The best way to have tolerance is to understand the other point of view.
Ah, yet another right wing/religious standard ploy. Rather than try to present non-existent evidence for their position, they come up with rhetorical devices designed to shut down debate. Such as this one; demanding that I meet an impossible standard of demonstrating that they have Borglike perfect conformity before criticizing Christianity. If no one can criticism Christianity without proving that “every Christian is like that”, then no one can criticize Christianity on any subject whatsoever. How convenient.
Point well taken, not really sure what to make out of that post. I guess the subject of my question is experienced by both sides. I just find it hard to understand how people can get so worked up over what someone else believes. The responses to my question have been a real eye opener to say the least.
When was the last time an atheist knocked on your door and asked you to convert, or asked for tax breaks for an atheist building, or wanted the govt. to put “there is no God” on our currency, or mentioned atheism when you sneezed, or asked you to hold hands before dinner and thank reason, or wanted to prevent you from being married or having the kind of sex you enjoy because it interferes with atheist doctrine, or left a stupid comic book promoting atheism on the bus, or got up before Congress and spoke about how there is no God, or for that matter mentioned atheism at all without you bringing up religion first?
You have a belief system based on the fact that I am a sinner, though you have never met me. Atheists have a belief system that you are smart enough not to believe in fairy tales. Who is insulting whom?
I used to be an angry, rabid atheist, for the reason you give. I was beaten, back in grade school, by so-called Christian classmates. I carried my fury for many years, until I got lucky and met a handful of Christians who better embodied the grace of their faith. They had the “soft answer that turns away wrath.”
So…now…I’m still an atheist, but no longer angry.
In any significant group of people, there will be a minority of jerks. Atheist jerks, religious jerks, biker jerks, tea connoisseur jerks, heck, even etiquette jerks! It’s the human way. Wisdom consists in not generalizing…
While some of what you said makes perfect sense, like someone knocking on your door, as to it being annoying some I just don’t get. Does it really bother you if someone says “God Bless You” after a sneeze, or you see someone saying a prayer of thanks before a meal? Do these two things really make you feel like another is “forcing” their beliefs on you? I find both to be quite innoccent.
No, seeing a prayer of thanks before a meal is just fine. Fill your boots I say.
It’s when you don’t join in wholeheartedly with the prayer, and are then subsequently questioned incessantly about your personal beliefs. They don’t want to leave you alone. They want you to JOIN them. To BE LIKE them. Otherwise, there is clearly something wrong with you.
It depends on the circumstance. Usually I find things like God Bless You charming, but prayer before meals can be coercive. Do I bow my head and close my eyes just to not make a fuss? If not what am I supposed to say when a kid asks “Why did Uncle S. leaves his eyes open?” (really happened) “Well Billy, I think that Jesus is an amalgamation of a series of myths from several cultures and either did not exist or is attributed with supernatural aspects. As such I do not feel inclined to close my eyes and pretend that I believe in such twaddle” (No, that did not happen).
If the prayer reciter talks on my behalf I really don’t like it; e.g., “We thank you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”. No, “we” don’t, you do. I can’t imagine being so rude as to assume that people share my religious beliefs and want me to speak for them “Mikey, put down that fork. Before we eat I want to express thanks that we are not burdened with myths that interfere with our ability to reason”.
But the absolute worst, is when people think that it is OK to prattle on about their religious beliefs at a public event like a school graduation or City Council meeting. I don’t see a problem with a student giving a speech about their own beliefs and how it affected their life, but having an official Invocation in this day and age is aggressively hateful.
Really? In post 40 I link to five examples of what I was talking about. Latter posts by myself and others have added more, and of course some of the friendly atheists in this very thread have proved my point by saying that all religious believers are mentally ill or brainwashed or stupid. So your statement that only one example of any of the things I described in my second post in this thread has been provided is untrue.
I’ve already linked to one dictionary establishing that penalty means punishment. If that’s in sufficient I could quote the one on my bookshelf–Websters New World Dictionary of the American Language: College Edition–which also defines penalty as “a punishment fixed by law”. So when you claim that penalty doesn’t mean punishment, you’re saying that you have the authority to override the dictionaries. Where exactly did you get this authority?
First of all, saying “‘Christian nation,’ etc.” is far too vague to serve as an explanation for what you’re talking about. When specifically has the conservative movement as a whole said that it wouldn’t support a non-Christian candidate? Second, conservatives are a minority of the voting public, so even if not a one of them would vote for a non-Christian, it wouldn’t necessarily prevent a candidate from taking a major party nomination or the presidency.
Yes.
As I’ve already implied, I don’t accept mere feelings as proving the point. It’s a fact that Lieberman was the VP on the ticket the voters chose in 2000 and ran for President in 2004 and virtually no one anywhere attached any significance to his being Jewish. If his political positions had matched those of Democratic voters he might have won the nomination in '04. Lieberman’s career and the public reaction to it put to rest any claim that non-Christians can’t run for president or that no one will vote for them.
One problem is that “social pressure” operates on a very wide scale, and can smoothly move from the acceptable to the unacceptable. This is a slippery slope fallacy, perhaps, but…
Okay, the nice family next to me at the restaurant says grace. I don’t. Now what?
Nobody notices? Fine.
Everybody stares at them? Not good.
Everybody stares at me? Not good.
The wait staff bring the offender (them or me) soggy toast and doesn’t refresh their coffee? The manager comes out and says, “I’m sure you’d be a lot happier at the next restaurant up the road. They cater to your kind.” Or all the other customers quietly and without any fuss stand up and walk out of the restaurant…
I’ve SEEN these latter two things happen (on the basis of race, not religion.) It’s ugly and scary.
Is there any way to legislate against social pressure? Maybe… In the workplace, we are guaranteed (?) a “non hostile environment.” That would prohibit co-workers quietly shunning someone who observes (or fails to observe) a religious ritual. But in the wider world?
So: is saying grace a personal ritual, without pressure? Or is it a socially dividing shibboleth that discriminates lambs from goats?
Thanks for clearing that up. I will agree that someone trying to force you to join them in their beliefs is not right. Better to try to do your best to make a guest feel comfortable than to go out of your way to force feed something.
What you’re saying is clear, I just don’t believe that it’s true or that it would prove your claim if it was. Take your first point: “They want to ban abortion. They do this because that have the belief that fetuses have souls”. Where would I find a piece of proposed legislation banning abortion because fetuses have souls? (Not just a piece of legislation that would ban abortion, but one that would do so for that exact reason?)
Second, recall that what you said was “It seems a lot like Christians are the ones who want to legislate that everyone should live by the rules of Christianity.” Now the three examples I gave–eucharist, confession, and baptism–certainly are rules of Christianity. So if Christians were introducing legislation requiring people to live by the rules of Christianity, you certainly ought to be able to refer me to legislation requiring that everyone participate in those things. If you’re not able to do so, it calls into question your claim about what Christians are doing.
Oh? This refers to when you said “It takes a special kind of person to be standing on the top of the pile with a bloody baseball bat screaming about how he’s being oppressed.” Please explain exactly when and where I beat up a bunch of people with a baseball bat (literally or metaphorically).
By “so many”, do you mean thousands?
Hundreds?
Tens?
A couple of posters that weren’t addressing you personally, and didn’t really say anything close to that, so you used your imagination and “Other Words” to translate their posts?