Atheist vs Believers

Great Debates
144

When one lives in a society where the default “x” (sex, race, religion) is “y”, those that belong to the “y” group may fail to be aware just how stifling, overwhelming, and sometimes threatening their numerical and/or power superiority can be for those not in that group.

It’s human nature that people in the default group will tend to misunderstand what others really are forced to endure, and will exaggerate their own, lesser hardships. But it is important that they (you) at least try to overcome this tendency.

Rather as I, as a straight, white male, should try to understand what women, gays, and non-whites still usually face in our society…BUT I should never presume to fully grasp their situations, especially not by pretending that some slight I have experienced because I’m white, straight, and male (and not poor, I should add) is comparable to what they experience. Because it’s not. (Each of us is a “minority” in *some *respect, so I can empathize with their situation to some degree, but not in the “main” categories like race, sex, and sexual orientation. Oh, and not being disabled.)

Really, it’s only my atheism that marks me as something non-default in our society. (Until I reach an old age, that is. If I do!) It’s the one thing that gives me a less severe taste, quite often but not every day, of what African Americans face pretty much all the time in many places, for example.

Buy you, as a Christian, simply cannot fully grasp what we atheists face in this society. (Though I do appreciate your efforts.) It is in this sense that the complaining-on-a-bloody-pile metaphor makes sense (or whatever it was.)

145

There is no other reason to want to ban it. Any attribution of “personhood” to a fetus is a religious belief. There is no non-religious reason to attribute “personhood” status to a zygote.

We also have a plethora of other Christo-fascist, theocratic bullshit that conservative Christians want to cram up our asses on a daily basis. To name one prominent example - the exclusion of same-sex couples from marriage benefits offered to Britney Spears and Newt Gingrich at the merest drunken whim in Las Vegas. Another example: The never-ending attempts to teach ancient Sumerian mythology as science in public schools. Another example: I can’t buy beer on Sundays.

I’m not anti-Christian, I’m strongly supportive of freedom of the mind, including religious freedom and I think any attempts to obstruct or ban free practice, private religious expression or religious thought of any kind is not only unethical, but stupid and doomed to failure, but don’t pretend that Christians haven’t always pretty much steamrolled non-Christians all kinds of ways. The US is 80% Christian. If the Constitution wasn’t in the way, we’d still have forced Christian prayer in schools, atheism would be illegal and Muslims would probably getting burned at the stake.

146

Actually, I for one am glad to be reminded from time to time, as you have here, that it’s better to assume that people *are *capable of shedding their religious beliefs, because they’re not stupid. So, we atheists do indeed need to be careful to avoid implying that they *are *stupid.

But keep in mind that we will probably still come across to you as sounding “condescending”. And the fact that we think you’re capable of better, more rational thought is more likely to make us “bother” you (gently, one hopes) more, rather than less.

147

Recall what you said: “Thing is, the natural disposition of this forum is towards rationality and evidence…Religion, by its own admission, is set apart from that.” Obviously your statement would only be true if you could find quotes from adequate religious authority to reasonably represent religion as a whole saying what you said. Otherwise your claim is nonsense. It’s you who inserted the phrase “by its own admission” into your post. The fact that you choose to insult religious believers doesn’t mean that we’ve all admitted your insult to be the truth.

Sure, you could provide me with an intellectual argument more convincing then the arguments I’ve read for Christianity.

148

The null hypothesis is that it’s physically impossible for people to come back from the dead. That doesn’t have to be proven. That’s the default, starting assumption. What arguments can you produce to falsify the null here?

149

This is an area where I am very well-versed…

To any theist: Ask me anything.

150

How the hell can an atheist that relies on evidence, logic and reason possibly respond to this? By making up something out of thin air that is even more contradictory and nonsensical than what you currently believe? I can’t possibly understand how you got where you are by arguing intellectually.

151

And yet children are still required to say the Pledge of Allegiance with the words “under God” in it. And despite several challenges, those words remain in the Pledge.

152

You can’t always reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

If God is always being defined as something outside of science, then how can any amount of science possibly persuade someone who firmly believes in something unfalsifiable?

Of course, I do think that when someone becomes better-educated (especially in science), they begin to realize more and more why religion is mostly an emotional appeal. We do not need to invoke the supernatural to explain anything.

153

Actually, you didn’t link to a dictionary at all; you linked to a thesaurus.

154

I was an atheist until age 23. I do not recall that I ever had to “face” anything bad from this society at all, nor was oppressed in any way, nor had to fear anything. Looking at the examples that atheists have brought up in this thread, I have trouble seeing that any of them terrified or oppressed me. Missionaries knocking on my door? Can’t recall that it ever happened. I’ve been oppressed by a couple magazine salesmen and the UPS guy oppressed my household on a regular basis, but that’s it. People in the same restaurant as me saying grace? Only saw it a few times and somehow I managed to survive. Leaving tracts on the bus? I only encountered a couple and I somehow managed to face them down. People saying “God bless you” when I sneezed? Against all odds, I somehow managed to pull through that dreadful experience.

Hence I have trouble believing that these things are “stifling, overwhelming, and sometimes threatening”. I have even more trouble believing that any of these things are well-represented by the metaphor of bashing people with a baseball bat.

155

Out of curiosity ITR, what do you make of post #119?

156

What do you have against Jews? Are they too stupid to understand the compelling intellectual evidence you have for Christianity? It’s one thing to think that you follow Christianity because you were born in a heavily Christian country and, presumably, to Christian parents, but no, you have an “intellectual” belief in Christianity.

157

So you’re not anti-Christian, you’ve just devoted much of your life to making anonymous internet posts telling Christians how much you despise us? Is that the shape of it?

By the way, would please tell me the names of the pieces of legislation making atheism illegal and ordering Muslims to be burned at the stake, before they were overturned on Constitutional grounds? Thank you.

158

I think the modern-day example of the highly-bigoted Tea Party is a huge example of what happens when you get overly religious folk pushing their justifications of fantasy over reality.

That’s ultimately what it comes down to. Are we going to look at facts, or just believe whatever the hell we want?

If we’re going to be intellectually honest and choose the former, atheism is the way to go. Otherwise, come on – you do not have an “intellectual” justification for Christianity because it doesn’t exist. Had you been born elsewhere, you’d believe in something different.

159

Would you settle for politicians advocating that Muslims not be allowed to build Mosques? Cause there is one running for President as we speak.

160

Are you saying that Hindus and Buddhists are stupid?

161

Pretty funny stuff: Richard Dawkins talking about Mormonism and Joseph Smith - YouTube

It’s embarrassing.

162

I see a post at the same level of civility and intellectual rigor as #13, #14, #26, #47, #103, #145, …

163

I have nothing against Jews, nor is there any reason for you to accuse me of disliking Jews. It’s just another false accusation on your part.

No.

First of all your presumption about my parents’ religion is dead wrong. My dad was and still is an atheist, my mom was an agnostic (I think) when I was a kid, since converted but only after I left for college.

As for your statement that being a Christian because the country of one’s birth is majority Christian is different from being a Christian for intellectual reasons, I agree.