When in a foxhole, everyone offers blood sacrifice to Quetzlcoatl to ensure their deliverance.
I see you saw what I accidentally did there.
I agree with your preference for removing references to G/god(s).
When my job has me administer oaths in legal proceedings, I ask people to “Swear or affirm under penalty of perjury…” A very few folk say, “I affrm”, and a similar minority respond, “I swear to god.”
I never took it that way.
“When people are driving on ice and they start to slide, they jam on the brakes.” Bad idea. You don’t stop and the steering stops working. In other words, just because people do something, that doesn’t mean it gets the desired result. But it’s a common phenomenon. Karl Marx said something to the effect that religion is the opium of the masses, IIRC.
Or following the crowd might be a good idea. Why are people outside today turning off their water? They may have burst pipes from the freeze, and it will be more manageable. Watch what others do; it may be useful.
So it depends on the situation. But following or not following isn’t what make you “right.”
By capitalizing “God” I’ll assume you mean the Christian one. But I can’t tell if you think the expression refers to the Christian beliefs or more…atheism means not believing in ANY god, right? If Muslims pray in the foxhole, it fits—they aren’t atheists if they believe in Allah as a higher power. If people from Muslim areas who once merely feigned belief suddenly think they better pray…it fits. If you’re under fire in the foxhole and you suddenly realize that Santa was the answer all along because he brought awesome gifts over the years—then you believe in some form of higher power and you pray to him, that fits the expression.
I’m confused by your mention of Odin. But if they perceive Odin to be a higher power, and some come around to Odin when they’re under duress, it fits.
Again with the Christian thing. Are you saying the expression presumes Christianity is the way or religion in general is the way?
We recently had a discussion of the term “rabbit hole” somewhere on these boards. And I know that other expressions and proverbs are interpreted differently by different people. You’re welcome to yours and as I already said, it hadn’t occurred to me that this was offensive to atheists.
Don’t imagine I’m Mr. Christian sticking up for the faith or anything—I just gave you what my honest interpretation of it has been throughout the years. I think there’s more room for interpretation than you’re allowing, but I can’t say I’m an atheist, either, so maybe it isn’t for me to say.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say with this.
Given that the specific phrase originated in WW1 and appears to have been first said by a chaplain, yes I think it’s christian. Though a similar sentiment appears to have been discussed in the early 1700s by Michel de Montaigne, a Catholic. So yes, still christian.
The notion that everyone is a christian deep down and anybody who says otherwise is just in denial is one I’ve heard before. I’ve never heard that about any other religion.
Right - so atheists wouldn’t pray to anyone in a foxhole, because that would be stupid - it would be like if a christian decided to pray to Santa or Odin (which was my point). The phrase, to make any sense at all in any contest, presumes that the atheists are all liars who, deep down, believe in God. (Or some other diety, but really, the phrase means God.)
My feeling as an atheist who was raised as a liberal Methodist, and who does occasionally pray in times of stress, is that there is nothing wrong with a little bit of healthy superstition as long as its kept in perspective.
I also pick up pennies for luck, and make a point to read my horoscope on my birthday. I know rationally that none of these things are real. but they are fun. Similarly when things are out of your control, its nice for a moment to have something to do that you can pretend might help, even if you realize rationally it won’t have any affect what so ever. If it gives you comfort and isn’t being used as a replacement for actions that could actually help, I don’t see any harm in doing so or reason to feel guilty about it.
I think it’s just human nature to call out to something in desperate times. I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s not like you’re going to be drummed out of atheist club for some private thought. I think I’ve called out to the divine when my team was down two runs in the bottom of the ninth.
In my first year of college, our dormitory was co-ed but segregated by floors. It was strictly verboten to have a woman in your dorm room overnight.
One of my buddies was the Resident Advisor for our floor. Rather curious about their ability to detect transgressions, I asked how they might know when the rule was being broken.
“Generally,” he said, “we hear invocations of the deity where we wouldn’t normally expect to.”
So … yeah … sporting events of all kinds can do that 
I had a bunch of health problems in 2019, but it never occurred to me to call out to anything. I rationally evaluated the alternatives and found good doctors.
One of my disks got swollen so that I couldn’t stand for more than five minutes at a time. Then it healed itself. If I was religious, I’d probably see this as proof. As it is, my thought is “isn’t evolution great.” I keep waiting for someone to say I got better through prayer. I’d respond sure, I prayed to Christopher Hitchens - and it worked.
Anyhow, I figure Christians in foxholes pray, while atheists shoot.
Well, I mean, good for you if that works for you. Some people choose a different path. If a bit of prayer, even to an entity you don’t believe in, helps with stress and focuses thought, I don’t see the harm. It’s not like it’s incompatible with rationally evaluating the alternatives and finding good doctors. Even Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and Muslims can do that.
I’m not really that invested in Atheism. I just don’t think there’s a God, at least not in the sense(s) most religions mean. I’ve never joined some atheist club or anything like that. I’m not going to feel ashamed if I say a little prayer or feel proud of myself if I don’t.
From a purely academic standpoint I’m wondering if prayer is a survival instinct that proliferated because our ancient ancestors faced down life and death on a regular basis. I am an atheist who is not remotely offended by no atheists in fox holes - jibes pretty well with my experience. Then there’s the God Helmet. Religious belief makes sense in this context.
I struggle with this, too. “I’ll be thinking compassionate thoughts about you” just doesn’t have the same ring to it. But “I’m sending you positive energy!” just sounds woo. I have a friend who says, “I’m holding space for you” and that’s fine. But much like ‘‘gosh darn it!’’ will never be able to substitute for an emphatic God damn! I don’t think anything will have the same emotional impact as some religious sentiment.
I have sympathy for the OP. I think some people are naturally inclined toward belief, and moving from belief to non-belief is a difficult process. There’s an old Bible verse about how as a new Christian, you have to start out crawling, then learn to walk, and finally to run. I think that applies for some of us as atheists.
In the early days of my atheism I struggled a lot with existential despair and fear of the unknown. It would keep me up at night. Because living life believing that some higher power has got your back is imminently more comforting than realizing nothing matters and what happens to you is cruel random chance. That’s goddamn terrifying. It changes how you look at the world and everything in it. There were times I felt I couldn’t bear to live in a world where horrifying things could theoretically happen to me. I had worn my faith like armor, not to prevent the bad from happening, but with the certainty that I wouldn’t be alone and it was an ordained part of my path. When that armor falls off, you have nothing but profound loneliness and a sense that everything has spun out of control.
As I’ve gotten older, I’ve been able to let go of that fear and just live my life. Sure I have occasional scary moments where I wonder if I’m not destined for hell after all (indoctrination runs deep), but for the most part I’m okay with the way things are. I spend less time worrying about The Meaning of it All and more time worrying about the meaning I’m making right now.
Yes, this is my “It gets better” speech. Hang in there.
I have been an atheist since I can remember. I was taken to Sunday school as a young child, but I don’t remember ever believing any of it. By age 10 or so I actively hated going, and eventually I was allowed to stop going.
But I can’t deny that I am steeped in Christian culture, as are pretty much all Americans. It doesn’t mean I believe in the doctrines, but we are all influenced down to our thought processes, cultural archetypes, etc. Views of dualistic natures, good vs evil, naïve innocence vs knowing sin, the symbolism of dark vs light, concepts of “being in hell,” or that something is “a hellscape,” innocence and beauty are “angelic,” etc. Even if I avoid actively using, and try to be aware of such concepts, they are all around us and we would not understand our culture without being fluent in some of these aspects of Christianity.
So yes, you can be an atheist and never have believed any of it, but I don’t think anyone raised in this culture could say they haven’t been influenced by it, or that they have rejected every aspect of Christian influence.
I just don’t see how it would work. I could pray to Frodo all day and I really don’t think it would help with stress or focus thought, unless feeling silly and laughing at yourself helps. (Which I suppose it might.)
It’s possible to be an atheist and a spiritualist at the same time - you can believe in various kids of ghosts and spirits and woo without considering anything you believe in to be a god. Alternatively a person might entertain a sort of soft deism where they think that fate/the universe is listening to them without considering it to be a god. In either of those cases one could make ‘generic prayers’ which still being, technically, an atheist. So maybe that’s you?
(Myself I can’t see how something as big as the universe could be paying attention to me, but I have been known to swear at malfunctioning hardware, which is close enough to hear me.)
Well then it wouldn’t work for you, anymore than it would work for Voyager. But surely you can see that it might work for somebody. And no, I don’t believe in any sort of deity, soft or otherwise. Nor do I believe in ghosts or spirits or woo. I’m fully aware that when I pray for the Nationals to come from behind and beat the Phillies I’m being irrational. Even if the Christian god existed, why would he care who won a baseball game? I mean sure the Phillies are the devil’s team, but still…
It’s just a silly thing I do. I’ve been a non-believer my whole life, raised by non-believers. Even as a small child I thought the Bible stories I read weren’t any more real than Peter Pan or Superman comics. But I’m not going to feel guilty if some irrational thought floats through my head. This was the OP’s concern, and i wanted to tell her not to worry about it. Like I said she’s not going to be drummed out of atheist club for it, and if she was, why would she want to join such a shitty club in the first place?
I just listed two types of people who it might work for, so yeah.
And I don’t think anybody’s trying to guilt trip you for invoking Frodo on occasion. Heck, nobody’s even judging recovering theists for falling back on old habits (except maybe themselves).
You seem to have peculiar opinions about this “atheist club” you keep talking about. My question is, where is this club? I’d like to sign up. I’d be nice to be able to hang out with people I could at least consider pursing relationships with without risking yet another religion-based collapse.
This might help.
That’s rather more activist that I’d be wanting, frankly, but I appreciate the thought.
I wasn’t really serious anyway - if I did suddenly find myself surrounded by interested atheist women, I’d certainly find some other reason to back away and hide.
That’s a pithy line. I don’t think it has any actual relationship to reality, though.
For one thing, it seems self-congratulatory, as if us atheists always act rationally and pragmatically to get shit done, while those stupid god-botherers just pester their sky fairy. I served with Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, deists, agnostics, and atheists. I never noticed any correlation between religious belief or affiliation and how well anyone reacted in a crisis, or with how likely someone was to freeze up or freak out.
Also, if you’re in the foxhole because you’re seeking cover from an artillery barrage, shooting would be actively stupid. Sometimes, there are situations where all you can do is duck and cover, stick your head between your legs, and, well…pray. Or not.
Again, I’m definitely not saying that the adage “there are no atheists in foxholes” is literally, universally true. But, again, from my own personal experience, I don’t think it’s completely wrong, either. I never thought I would pray under any circumstances, until I found myself in circumstances in which I did. I didn’t expect anything from it, I didn’t convert, and after the moment of crisis passed, my beliefs and attitudes and practices didn’t change one whit. But in that moment, I had an instinctive reaction, and I prayed.
Now, of course, that was my own personal reaction, under a specific set of circumstances. It’s entirely possible, in fact almost a certainty, that you would have reacted differently. It’s entirely possible that there are simply no circumstances in which you would ever, even for a moment, devoutly wish that some unseen Higher Power would intervene on your behalf. I don’t doubt that there are quite a few people in the world for whom that would be true. But, sometimes, some of us react to extreme stress in ways that we don’t think we would.
I’ve been in a few of life’s foxholes, and never once was moved to pray.
My grandfather wasn’t an atheist until he got near, y’know, foxholes.