Atheists: Do you believe you are an atheist because you are smart?

[begbert2]

Personal sniping in IMHO now?

@Scumpup

I am of the opinion that most atheists are not atheists as a result of intelligence or even of critical thinking.

Probably depends on where they are. There are places in the world where atheism or a very weak level of belief is the norm. There are other places where some specific religion is treated as a truth more true than science by the vast majority of authority figures that a person might meet. In the latter environment a certain level of critical thinking is required to cut through the bullshit.

@Scumpup

They no more reasoned themselves into atheism than the typical believereasoned hirself into belief. This includes my own atheism. If anything, IMO, the typical arc for an atheist is to just not believe and then work backwards from that to try to articulate why.

Sure, but that doesn’t mean that critical thinking wasn’t involved. As the pillars of belief get chipped and knocked over one by one, the fervent certainty wanes as a consequence, until enough support has been lost that the brain glances around, shrugs, and discards belief.

Theists call this a crisis of faith. Early onset atheists call it “duh”.

@Scumpup

Often, if the atheist is the child of believers, there will be an element of rebellion against parental authority and/ or the religious group’s norms mixed into the atheist’s explanation for their lackof belief. This may be conscious or subconscious.

In my experience all the rebellion took place while demonstrating my lack of belief. And really, since a person don’t consciously choose to believe or not (as you yourself just said), how could it possibly be the case that they choose to disbelieve just to spite somebody? You’re contradicting yourself.

@Scumpup

As for why I ask the question, there exists a vocal portion of the atheist population who are fiercely proud of their atheism. I am curious as to why. From my POV, pride in something should be tied to actual accomplishment.

While the whole “We’re not wrong, dammit!” reaction to oppression is definitely a factor, there really is a sense that other people out there believe in some really stupid, obviously false stuff. I mean, suppose you ran into somebody who was wearing a shirt, who announced, “I am not wearing a shirt!”, persisting in these claims regardless of the manifest evidence to the contrary. Once you’d eliminated the possibility that they were faking it to mess with you, one natural reaction would be to think that that person was an idiot, right? That’s what a lot of religions look like from the outside. It actually took me a while to figure out that believing in idiotic things didn’t mean the person was totally an idiot - compartmentalization is totally a thing and an idiotic notion can get lodged firmly in the idea of anyone, no mater how smart they are. (Presumably even me!)

So yeah, there was definitely a time when I thought that religious people were all idiots, what with them periodically and regularly talking and acting like idiots. It was a cause of some consternation, how an otherwise smart person could be so dumb, until I got a little older and figured it out.

[QuickSilver]

@Inigo_Montoya

Because they are assholes. There are plenty of them WITH religion as well.

No asshole atheist has ever knocked on my door on Sunday morning to share the ‘good news’. Nor do they congregate outside the metro stations on my daily commute and harangue people with pamphlets. The only way I’ve ever recognized a fellow atheist as such, is in protracted conversations, and only after we progressed into a kind of friendship where we’d happily sit together for a drink or meal. Whereas, religious people often signal their god loving virtues before I even learn their name. Not that I don’t appreciate the early warning, you understand.

[Czarcasm]

@GreenWyvern

No mention yet of Richard Dawkins promoting an atheist movement called ‘The Brights’?

Apparently he wasn’t clever enough to realise how stupid that sounds.

Thank you for that one reference from one atheist back in 2003 that doesn’t seem to match up with anything said in this thread.

[QuickSilver]

@GreenWyvern

No mention yet of Richard Dawkins promoting an atheist movement called ‘The Brights’?

Apparently he wasn’t clever enough to realise how stupid that sounds.

Even smart atheists say stupid things. So who’s arguing?

[Nawth_Chucka]

@Voyager

My kids are both atheists, not surprising growing up in a home without religion. But they stayed atheist without the need of going to atheist Sunday school or something. This indoctrination seems necessary for kids being brought up in a religion. The only instruction they got was when they were each 10, and I went through the first few chapters of Genesis with them pointing out the internal contradictions and farcical “science.”

On the other hand, they are both very smart.

The indoctrination is necessary b/c it’s harder to remember a lie than the truth. Witnessing or understanding tangible things makes them stick, while being told stories of spiritual history in and being expected to apply those stories to your daily life for no apparently good reason requires repetition to stick.

[Voyager]

@Nawth_Chucka

The indoctrination is necessary b/c it’s harder to remember a lie than the truth. Witnessing or understanding tangible things makes them stick, while being told stories of spiritual history in and being expected to apply those stories to your daily life for no apparently good reason requires repetition to stick.

I like your take on this. I never have been able to memorize Fahrenheit to Centigrade conversion, but I can derive it whenever I need it. Likewise I can derive reasons for atheism whenever I need to, which are not at all “someone supposedly said so 2,000 years ago.”

[Voyager]

@Scumpup

I am of the opinion that most atheists are not atheists as a result of intelligence or even of critical thinking. They no more reasoned themselves into atheism than the typical believereasoned hirself into belief. This includes my own atheism. If anything, IMO, the typical arc for an atheist is to just not believe and then work backwards from that to try to articulate why. Often, if the atheist is the child of believers, there will be an element of rebellion against parental authority and/ or the religious group’s norms mixed into the atheist’s explanation for their lackof belief. This may be conscious or subconscious.

That’s your belief. Lovely. As my mother used to say, your belief and a nickel will get you on the subway. (It was a long time ago.) Have any evidence for your belief, especially in the case of those of us who deconverted? I wasn’t rebelling against anything myself. I just found new information and drew the logical conclusion from it.

As for why I ask the question, there exists a vocal portion of the atheist population who are fiercely proud of their atheism. I am curious as to why. From my POV, pride in something should be tied to actual accomplishment. Since this place is ostensibly a hangout for smart people, I phrased the question around being smart.

Shouldn’t the kid who noticed and said that the emperor wasn’t wearing any clothes be a bit proud of it? Shouldn’t anyone who thinks for themselves be proud of it?
BTW, I did a study a while back that showed that Dopers have been on Jeopardy with a frequency several orders of magnitude higher than the population at large, so there is evidence for our advanced intelligence. But of course that does not exclude the possibility of Doper dimbulbs.

[Czarcasm]

@Czarcasm

And have any of the responses in this thread changed that opinion in any way?

I think his followup responses have answered this question.

[Scumpup]

My apologies to Kayaker. I have enjoyed talking with him many times. I thought I was replying to another participant in the thread.

[Scumpup]

@Roderick_Femm

I now feel like a fool for having participated in this sham of a thread.

You feel how you feel. Explain how the thread is a sham, though.

[Nawth_Chucka]

@kayaker

Are atheists a group? Can you meaningfully talk about people who do not collect stamps as a group?

Anti-philately is an ugly phenomenon.

[QuickSilver]

@Nawth_Chucka

Anti-philately is an ugly phenomenon.

It can be licked.

[Trancephalic]

Religion itself had little bearing on my atheism in totality, but it helped. Their hypocrisy, gaslighting, and cloying bon homie are undeniable. Even if you fall into reasinable traps such as “something from nothing,” or probability, it invariably comes packaged with sexism, racism, jingoism, homophobia, and just about every nasty mindset.

But of course that was /past/ religion, it’s changed for the better now, baby. Our prejudices affirmed by the infallible lawd, weren’t ours! No! Those were the fake believers adjusts kilt.

It won’t hurt you again, I swear!

My grandmother was victim of “Spare the man, kill the Indian.” Fuck religion, and fuck you for believing in this toxic shit for bogus self assurance.

[MarvinKitFox]

@Der_Trihs

No. Religion is obvious nonsense, it doesn’t take much intelligence to see through it. It only takes the willingness to do so.

Exactly.
I would call myself an agnostic, because while I do think there is/might be something more than mere physical existence (the simple existence of mind is a good hint for this), i am also quite convinced that NONE of the current or historical organized religions got it right. Nor even vaguely close.

[Treppenwitz]

Actually, I dislike being called an atheist. Being called a something kind of suggests I have a belief system. I don’t. There’s nothing. Am I on my own here?

As for this thread being a sham - the responses certainly haven’t been. It’s a very interesting read. FWIW I thought Christianity (and by extension religion in general) was nonsense well before I was forced through confirmation, so that would put me at about 12. Who’s super smart at 12? But questioning and being critical/sceptical, yes. I was inclined to the sciences from a young age.

j

[begbert2]

@Treppenwitz

Actually, I dislike being called an atheist. Being called a something kind of suggests I have a belief system. I don’t. There’s nothing. Am I on my own here?

Is 'You’re wrong and you’re wrong and you’re wrong and you’re wrong" a system?

[Ashtura]

Often, if the atheist is the child of believers, there will be an element of rebellion against parental authority and/ or the religious group’s norms mixed into the atheist’s explanation for their lackof belief.

Perhaps that is the case for some. For me, I came into atheism as an adult and there was no rebellion aspect at all. In fact, while my parents know I don’t go to church, I have not spoken to them about it at all. I don’t think I have spoken to anyone about it IRL as a matter of fact, and I don’t live in a particularly conservative area. I would never be a militant atheist or try to make someone an atheist. I think a lot of people NEED religion, especially if they say things like “If there’s no God, why be good?” Nope you keep on going to church, man.

[Treppenwitz]

@begbert2

Is 'You’re wrong and you’re wrong and you’re wrong and you’re wrong" a system?

Are you asking because you have an answer? I would love to know it.

If it’s a case of putting words in my mouth, my preferred words are “there’s nothing”. If anyone wants to prove otherwise - great, crack on. You got a convert right here. Until then, there’s nothing.

j

[begbert2]

@Treppenwitz

Are you asking because you have an answer? I would love to know it.

If it’s a case of putting words in my mouth, my preferred words are “there’s nothing”. If anyone wants to prove otherwise - great, crack on. You got a convert right here. Until then, there’s nothing.

j

Well, my answer is that the term “atheism” means “not a believer in any god”. (Words, having meanings? Madness! Madness!!) To me there’s not the faintest hint of an implication of any system of beliefs in the word “atheism”. Heck, it doesn’t even imply that you’re not a part of a religion! There are atheistic sects out there, who believe in various flavors of woo but no gods.

(As part of my continuing rejection of the idea that words have meanings, I also cheerfully use the word “atheistic” to mean "doesn’t believe in whatever, as in the sentence, “I’m atheistic towards ghosts too.” It’s my understanding that the word police are looking for me over that one.)

When I hear of a person who thinks that atheism is a system of beliefs, I generally assume that they, like you, are mistakenly thinking that atheism must be a full-on religion, which presumably is just keeping its beliefs secret because they involve eating babies or something. But I’m pretty sure that’s just projection, driven by people who are members of a religion and have a hard time seeing things in a different perspective of their own. How could a person not be in a religion?

[HoneyBadgerDC]

My feelings about god and an afterlife are very contradictory about themselves and would be meaningless to anyone but myself. I feel comfortable with it.