The recent threads about religion have made me wonder, this one in particular…
If all you know about a person is that they believe in a god or gods, do you assume that they are…
*not intelligent?
*not rational?
*not a (good) critical thinker?
*childlike?
If all you know about them is that they follow an organized religion, do you assume that they are…
*not intelligent?
*not rational?
*not a (good) critical thinker?
*childlike?
Are there any other assumptions you make about a person based on either of the above two scenarios? Does the religion they follow matter? If you don’t want to discuss your own thoughts, I’m also interested in related encounters with other people you know.
I don’t make an assumption any way or the other. I know people I would qualify as geniuses that are very religious/spiritual/whatever (physicists esp. it seems) as well as religious idiots. I know several very intelligent atheists as well as a whole bunch of dumbassed ones. Several of the world’s great philosphers, scientists and thinkers have been both religious and atheistic. There’s no way I could draw a conclusion about someone’s intelligence based on their religious inclinations any more than I could from their gender/race etc. etc…
I believe in a god, so I can’t really say much on the first instance, but I tend to be wary around Christians. Never really had a problem with Catholics, but with other denomiations I find they tend to bring it up more than I’m comfortable with, and are a bit more close minded to other points of view and ways of life (not that I’m saying Catholics can’t be, but this is just my experience). I don’t have a problem with people believing differently than I do, but I do once they start arguing with me about it. I once had a (Baptist) friend tell me I was an idiot because I believed in psychics and the like. Ditto on evolution.
Aside from that, I don’t make firm judgements about a person based on their beliefs, especially not about intelligence. Said friend, and some others I know, are quite intelligent but also quite religious, and some of them carry it to a point that bothers me.
I’m afraid that now we’re going to start debating about how to lie with statistics, the meaning of human intelligence, and other topics peripheral to the subject at hand: the empirical correlation between the commonly accepted notions of “religion” and “intelligence”.
I’ve not thought much about it, but I usually experience something akin to surprise when I identify a church-goer who also has something going on upstairs. I **don’t ** assume I misjudged them and that they are in fact mindless followers of an entity that refuses to manifest itself although, reportedly, it could at any time :rolleyes: , but I’m just a bit surprised.
Again, I don’t know why this is, but I strongly suspect that, like gays, the only ones I’ve positively identified have outed themselves to me. Unlike gays, however, the religiosos who have themselves so outed have done so with the stated intent of bending my views to match their own. “Come to church with me sometime and I’ll *show *you how good it can feel” or something like that. These people I feel are limited mentally because they refuse to accept the idea that I am not a God-worshipper, and that I made this choice on my own. Conversely, many God-worshippers I think have not made such a decsion so much as obeyed someone who was presented to them as an authority.
Not sayin’ all religious people are like this, nor that they are ipso facto dolts. Just that the ones I do know show little ability for the reflection I would associate with intelligence.
I also know a fair number of atheists who are idiots, so maybe religious fervor is something I have errantly focused on in the zealots. Could be they’d be the same way about Amway or Apple computers.
What a mean-spirited OP. Would it have been hard to list any positive traits as options? Or just to leave it open-ended? This a bit like asking:
If all you know about someone is that they drive a Honda, do you assume they:
[ul]
[li]Are poor[/li][li]Like large mufflers and spoilers[/li][li]Don’t know much about cars[/li][li]Molest children[/li][/ul]
I don’t usually equate intelligence quotient with spiritual beliefs or lack of them. I don’t think a belief in God necessarily denotes stupidity or a lack of intelligence, in fact quite the opposite. I think it takes some serious thought about the nature of the universe and one’s place in it to arrive at acceptance of a spiritual belief. Of course this is more often true of the “spiritual seeker” rather than those who are born into a religion or have blind faith for any number of reasoned social, political, or familial motivations.
Well I’ve often said that I think religion is for the weak-minded.
As to the OP:
*not intelligent? ----not necessarily
*not rational? ----maybe, but then again I’d say this about females also.
*not a (good) critical thinker? ----not necessarily, although more likely
*childlike? ---- only in a religious sense
Of course, I also often say that I believe in letting people have whatever crutch they need to get through life, be it alcohol, drugs, television, Jesus or whatever.
But I still think they’re weak-minded.
No, Metacom, it’s not mean-spirited. In the thread linked in the OP, those options were all things brought up by other posters. Being that it’s more common in American society to assume that church-going or religious people are good people, I was surprised when I read the other thread. I’m curious about how common it is to assume that people who believe in God or follow an organized religion are stupid, childlike, etc.
If a thread about Hondas turned up a bunch of posters who believe everyone who drives an Accord is a poor child molestor who doesn’t much about cars except that he likes big ol’ mufflers and spoilers, I’d be curious about how common that is, too.
Fair enough (the child molester bit was pure hyperbole, the others I was attempting to be somewhat accurate with regard to Honda stereotypes ;)).
The Dope tends to be more atheist then society has a whole, and that thread was an invitation to the more hard-line atheists to come out and play. I don’t think it was representative of the board as a whole…
Ok, to be bluntly honest I make a distinction here. If someone believes in God, I make no assumptions. If someone believes in a particular God in generality(i.e. They follow a specific religion but their beliefs are more generally spiritual.) I would also make no assumptions.
When people belief in a particular God and attribute acts to that God that are logically unreasonable (i.e. “Dubya’s the president because the good Lord wants him to be” but child molesters and criminals have chosen their own path outside of God’s will) then I assume they are illogical and haven’t thought the concept they are portraying through properly, or they’re unintelligent/ uneducated and unfamiliar with logical thought.
When people believe in the Bible/Koran/Torah directly and as the proper word of God, I would typically assume they are unintelligent or uneducated. No offense meant to any believer’s, although I know that surely it causes offense, but you can’t throw demonstrable science out the window in favor of personal belief without missing a bus somewhere.
I’m really a bit intrigued about what is coming next.
Yet I have a few questions for those who claim that I am an sort of mentally handicapped because I hapen to believe in God (together with all the other uncountable religious idiots on this globe):
Give proof that I am like you describe please.
Give proof that your brain is superior please.
Give proof that your state of being non-religious is so utterly superior in inviting the normal to excellent use of your grey cels please.
That is all for now.
Thank you for giving detailed answers.
This is a fine distinction but…
I wouldn’t think a religious person is more or less likely to be intelligent than a non religious person.
I would think a stupid person would be more likely to be religious than non-religious.
The reasoning being that one of the main criteria of stupidity is not questioning what you are taught, and since man schools are religious in nature, and most teachin seems to include religion it would seem likely that a stupid person would accept that teaching unquestioningly.
That linked thread got out of hand because some people focused on a few negative remarks, while ignoring neutral or positive views. And this thread will probably go the same way.
When I meet religious/theistic people in general, I just assume that they have different needs than than I do, and are working from a different set of assumptions about human nature and the universe. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.
In my experience, it is religious people who have weird assumptions about me. “If there is no God/superior intellect/higher purpose/whatever out there, how can there be meaning in your life?” “How can you be so nihilistic?” “Don’t you have a sense of wonder?” “How can you teach your kids to be ethical?” and on and on.
Just to make sure that I’m not in this category, do you believe in anything that requires you to shift some modern scientific studies into a category of “lies of the devil places here to mislead the faithful”, or “A test of faith put in place by God”?
Do you believe in the absolute power and will of God, yet also believe that God creates certain avenues of destiny while leaving others to vague free will?
No, I don’t generally make assumptions about a person’s intelligence or thinking skills based nothing but their personal religious beliefs. I know a whole lot of very smart people on all points of the spectrum. I know stupid atheists and dumb believers.
If it’s a really oddball or trendy religion, like Scientology or some of the sillier Wytchcraft Lite beliefs, I probably won’t be inclined to take them too seriously. But it doesn’t take me long to spot superficial, unthinking atheists and fail to take them seriously, either.
[QUOTE=Shaolinrabbit]
Just to make sure that I’m not in this category, do you believe in anything that requires you to shift some modern scientific studies into a category of “lies of the devil places here to mislead the faithful”, or “A test of faith put in place by God”?
Why shold I reject science when I believe God is the Creator of all (= also the human mind and its abilities)? I consider doing that no less then blasphemy since you deny God creaed these creative seeking minds.
I find this a strange question… I mean: You do what you want with your life, no?
The belief among Muslims is that God “chooses who He wants” which can be explained in different ways. There is also said (in Al Qur’an) that God created many ways. I don’t see any problem with that.
[QUOTE=Shaolinrabbit]
Just to make sure that I’m not in this category, do you believe in anything that requires you to shift some modern scientific studies into a category of “lies of the devil places here to mislead the faithful”, or “A test of faith put in place by God”?
Why should I reject science when I believe God is the Creator of all (= also the human mind and its abilities)? I consider doing that no less then blasphemy since you deny God created these creative seeking minds.
I find this a strange question… I mean: You do what you want with your life, no?
The belief among Muslims is that God “chooses who He wants” which can be explained in different ways. There is also said (in Al Qur’an) that God created many ways. I don’t see any problem with that.
True, but if you are taught religion and never question it you will remain religious. And never questioning things is a sign of stupidity. So a very stupid person would remain claiming to follow the religion they were taught, because such people never change there point of view.
For instance if you taught 1000 people that red wine goes with fish, only the intelligent of that 1000 would be likely to question what they were taught, and perhapse find their own truth.
