Bippy, the same can be said about the non-religious people who never question their views and defend them by all means possible.
Salaam. A
I don’t understand what faith and intellect have to do with one another, but then I’m probably just stupid.
The same applies to people brought up in athiest/agnostic/don’t care one way or 'tother households, and their numbers are becoming far larger. Is it somehow more virtuous never to question non-religiosity?
I’m with Liberal; the two qualities do not have a heck of a lot to do with one another.
Reason for you to rejoice then…
You are placed at the same level as I seem to be.
Salaam. A
As an atheist, I’d love to think that deists and religious folk are deluded fools, but my life experience does not lead me to that conclusion. There are some subgroups in the religious that commonly seem that way, in the ‘I know I’m right, and you are worth nothing if you don’t agree with me’ camp. But I’ve seen some atheists like that too, so it’s obviously not unique to religion …
It may surpise you to know the lengths some go in their beliefs. You’re aware for example that some Christians will reject various concepts of physics and biology in favor of biblical interpretations. Likewise with orthodox jewish folk.
The answer to your question is: depends on how you look at it. There is an understanding that an all powerful being that created the universe must also have created it’s machinations and that nothing within that universe can occur without his permission and agreement. That creation with the full knowledge of what each human would do and become from the beginning to the end of time precludes the concept of doing what you want with your life. When all of the genes in your body and all of the environment around you and all of your experiences were created, and planned in advance by God, it becomes impossible for you to really be cut free to do as you choose. You choose as you were made to choose.
There’s nothing wrong with that concept in and of itself, but it is logically difficult to come to a mixed position in which God does right by some and lets others fall to the wayside based on the choices we make within this system of created life. Therefore, each child molested, each person murdered, every war, etc. are a part of God’s plan.
Some people would try to divide this for more comfortable moral standing, in a sort of “God doesn’t make people do things” way. But it’s seemingly impossible for an event to occur without his knowing, and with that knowledge must come acceptance and endorsement, otherwise it would not occur.
I read something like
“deluded fools”…
Which reminds me to confess that there seems to be a widely spread consensus about the fact that I am one of these.
But that is especially so within my family.
And they are all believers…
I think I am now at the brink of becoming a bit confused…
Salaam. A
Seeing as it’s near fathers day…
My father both believes in god and belongs to an organized religion and he is probably one of the smartest people I’ve ever met (if it isn’t him it’s my uncle - who falls into the same category. I’m lucky to have such rolemodels). I don’t feel that I’m exagerating at all as he has an incredible grasp on just about every imaginable topic.
I, on the other hand only fall into the orgainzed religion category and regard myself as a bit of an idiot.
My sister and brothers fall into neither category and are very smart.
I have an ex girlfriend who was quite intelligent and fall into both categories.
There’s an acquaintance of mine who’s a pretty smart guy (took aerospace engineering, Master of applied science, and something else) and falls into neither category.
I have had a series of professors who all have a good head on their shoulders and fall into all three of the categories.
I think you can see where I’m going with this…
Tossing this over the fence into Great Debates while the neighbors are looking the other way.
Look, has anyone ever tried to study this question scientifically? It should be simple, and relatively inexpensive, for a psychologist to find out of there is any statistically signification correllation between one’s IQ and one’s level of religiosity. (Assuming IQ is a relevant measure of intelligence.)
I can see the more gullible people not questioning every rug-wearing snake-oil salesman televangelist. So, yes, in that respect, such gullible people might be aligned in the “religious” side, which might up the “dumb” percentage for religion.
However, as dangermom said, if the gullible people believe what their parents taught them and don’t question that, then plenty of gullible kids of atheist parents are going to be atheist. If they heard their skeptic parents saying that this is a bunch of hooey and that is a bunch of hooey, then they’ll parrot that. Won’t make them any smarter, though. They might decide that “skeptic” means “never believe anything that is outside of your rigid area of knowledge or your belief system,” and that will not make them any smarter either.
Then you’ve got the smart-but-emotional people who had it so drummed into their heads as kids that they CAN’T GIVE UP RELIGION THAT THEY WILL GO TO HELL, so they still classify themselves as religious, because they are emotional about it. It might not be a huge part of their lives, (i.e. going to church every day, etc.) but they won’t forsake it either. In other parts of their lives they are likely to make smart decisions and would not be classified as generally “dumb” people who “lack intelligent thought.” Some people make some decisions in their personal life for personal, emotional reasons.
I agree with others here: it’s too complex an issue, and to simply judge a person based on that bit of information alone is folly. To assume that “religious = dumb, mentally ill, lacking critical thought” is just as absurd as assuming “atheist = immoral, hard-hearted, etc.”
The main thing I tend to assume about religious people is that they were raised in a culture of religion. Most people I know believe some form of what their family believed in, religious or not.
There is the whole “intellectuality” question. I’ve spent a vanishingly small amount of time considering the entire area of bible study, while most of my more religious acquaintances study it at least weekly. People don’t spend time on what they consider to be unimportant or (more significantly) wrong. Religious people who don’t understand evolution aren’t stupid, they have a pre-existing bias which makes them dismiss the subject completely.
The culture of intellectuality is a very secular, progressive, skeptic culture in my experience, and arrives at conclusions based on sources and in ways that are diametrically opposed to the ways someone coming from a religious, conservative, belief-based culture is familiar with.
I do tend to assume that most fundamentalist Christians are unintellectual, or even anti-intellectual, culturally speaking.
I can tell much more about a person if they
- Tell me about their religion first chance they get
and - How they react when I tell them I’m an Atheist.
If the first words out of their mouth is along the lines of
Evolution never happened because I don’t understand it. (paraphrase of course)
Or
If you don’t believe in god why aren’t you out raping and robbing people.
I assume they are people that never wasted a critical thought about their religion and the choices others have made in regards to their systems of thought. I try to debate rationally with them but it always ends up in me explaining how evolution works and how it actually has nothing to do with atheism their preacher’s words notwithstanding.
I honestly had never heard a logical well thought out defense of faith until I came to these boards.
Granted, but so is generalizing and prejudging groups of people based on their beliefs.
I don’t understand this argument. Are you saying that the unintelligent would blindly parrot what they were taught? It seems to me that it is more likely for more affluent, well bred, intelligent people to follow social ritual like red wine goes with fish, and your average redneck doesn’t mind if he chugs Coors or Miller with his tuna sandwich.
Sorry, but asking “are theists stupid” is like asking “are atheists evil” - the answer in both cases is no, generalizations like that are stupid, ignorant, and weak-willed.
That is a mighty big assumption.
I would also question your data, since your groups (atheists v. theists) are horribly unmatched, statistically; there are so many more theists than atheists, and there are even more “cultural” theists and agnostics.
You would probably find greater correlation between white people and black people. (As a matter of fact, you DO find a great correlation between the two, but the difference can be easily explained.)
One thing I learned in Stat 5 - There is no such thing as a “simple survey”
Well, I am a Christian.
I don’t think I am stupid. Actual scientists have told me that I am very intelligent. I know I am not as intelligent as I was, years ago. (Contemporaneously, my faith has become stronger, as well, although I was a member of a church, long ago, and am not, currently.)
I am often rational, but I don’t consider that an iron bound limit to my thinking.
When I choose to be, I can be a critical thinker. I don’t choose that all that often, outside of the physical sciences.
On a good day, I am at least somewhat childlike, or, at least, I try to be.
Just some information to add to the mix.
Tris
Belief without supporting fact is the same on either side of the agnostic fence: silly. But it all comes down to what you do with it: do you broadcast your belief as fact, and insist that it be taken as fact? In that case whether you are a nobel laureate physicist, a bible-tumping creationist, or a middle-of-the-road fellow, I’d consider you pretty stupid – and this goes for any topic, not just god and religion.
Or do you hold on to your belief and analyze it, watch it develop, try to learn more about it without hungering for the cheap social validation that comes when someone else shares your belief? In that case you’re doing well in my book.
If you have knowledge of the world – as a scientist for example – chances are you recognize that god is an epistemically unnecessary element for which no supporting evidence exists, and you are therefore more likely to be agnostic or atheist.
Likewise, if you apply tools such as critical thinking judiciously you are bound to come to a similar conclusion of agnosticism or atheism based on the evidence at hand.
The problem is we forget that religion is largely a cultural phenomenon, not necessarily an intellectual one. You can easily have someone of high intelligence skilled in critical thinking and highly knowledgeable of the sciences who nonetheless believes in god and perhaps even practices a religion, for reasons that are entirely his or her own (this could include anything, from psychological trauma to childhood indoctrination, to a philosophical epiphany, a desire to believe, etc.).
How intelligent you are in these situations boils down to how well you can support your claims. 14-year olds who have decided that God does not exist are stating a conclusion in agreement with the information thus far available to us, but I can hardly respect their decision as an informed one, and would advise them to study the problem a bit further and with an open mind, collect some life experience, and do some research before reaching a conclusion.
It’s the old opinion versus fact. Belief deals with opinions – largely unsupportable opinions – whereas fact deals with demonstrable phenomena. You can believe whatever you want, but when such beliefs start to affect your perception and interpretation of demonstrable phenomea, yes, I would say you have become stupid. That goes equally for the creationist (see Michael Behe as an example of stupidity at work in science) as well as the knee-jerk atheist whose denial of God is actually based on belief and preference of thought rather than analysis of the problem.
I think the situation is pretty self-evident. There are a lot more religious people than nonreligious ones. Assuming there is no correlation between religiousness and intelligence, the larger group of religious people will have a proportional share of stupid people. Thus there are more stupid religious people.
In addition, religion serves the purpose of alleviating the pressures of reality to some extent. Most of us atheists have to turn elsewhere for this, and it’s hard to spout off stupid crap when you’re drinking a beer.
And yes, I believe that religion is pretty much a load of cowpies. Since this is a belief and not a factual statement, I’m not obligated to support it or provide a cite 
And your supporting fact for that belief is…?
Abe, not Apos, Lib.