Can I get an “Amen”, brother?
I don’t think death makes a reasonable end point for when you have to start believing. I say that because no modern vision of God suggests that God can be manipulated, and I, a mere human, can manipulate death–I can choose a time for my own death, for example. I can kill someone else. I can refuse life-saving help to a third person.
If I assume that God really has to stick to a timeline, then I can “force” God into damning someone. That doesn’t make sense, either from an atheistic standpoint or from a believer’s.
In rereading this, I’m not sure I’m making sense.
I’ll give an example: An acquaintance of mine argued that it would be better for an assailant to kill her than for her to kill her assailant. Why? Because she was reasonably certain about her relationship with God, but she could have nothing but doubt about her assailant’s relationship. She argued, then, that killing her assailant would be forcing God’s hand–that the assailant might have been saved if he or she had merely had more opportunities.
To me, this sounds completely strange. God is God. How can I force God to adhere to some arbitrary schedule? I didn’t find the argument reasonable and still don’t.
Julie
Chief Justice Roy Moore of Alabama’s Supreme Court has seen
fit to impose his Christian Religion upon the rest of us,by
installing the ten commandment’s in front of the Federal Courthouse.The Christians think they own this country,wrong!
Our country is made up of many different religions.And people
of many different ethinic groups.If we allow the placement of
the Christian Ten Commandments in front of public buildings
they must in all fairness,allow the other religions thier fair space
there as well.How about a Budda or the Star of David,maybe
some sacred text from the Koran.They say they want prayer in
schools,but you can bet they want only Christian prayers, they
would not stand for a Muslim prayer on Mondays,a Hindu prayer
on Tuesdays,a Jewish prayer on Wednesday,and the Christian
prayer on Thursday,and on Friday would be no prayer at all,it
would be the Atheist’s turn.Our forefathers had it right,they
came from countries that had one religion telling everone how
to live.Seperation of church and state is a cornerstone of freedom
of and FROM any and all religions from impossing thier will on the
rest of us.No religion has exclucive rights to America!It belongs
to all of us.Christians and Non-Christians.Keep your religions where they belong,in your churchs and your home,but most
importantly out of the public domain.If you learned anything
from history,when one religion takes over,you will be repressed
and we will be plunged back into the dark ages.The Catholic
church tried to strangle science in it’s cradle.And Islam today
wants to rule the world,as do the Christians.And all they have
to offer is Dogma,unproveable text,and they expect the rest of
us to fall in line and become one of the flock,a sheep,that a good
word!Thank goodness for the U.S.Constitution,may it continue
to protect us from any one religious group from taking over
America.As for Hell is concerned you are living in it now,and only
death will set you free.
May the force be with you
FrankoThe purpose of Hell is to maximize your suffering.
Therefore you will end up in heaven where Christians will drive you insane for the rest of eternity.
Have fun!
Dal Timgar
**Al Qur’an, surat al-ma’ida (V) ; 69.
Those who believe, those who adhere to Judaism, the Sabians and the Christians who believe in God and the Last Day and act righteous they have nothing to fear nor shall they be sad.**
I hope you feel a bit better now:)
Salaam. A.
That is in fact debatable.
But you are correct that the major belief is that the situation described as “hell” is to be understood as an everlasting disconfort. Personally I’m not convinced of this for several reasons.
Salaam. A.
I’m aware that the literal belief in an eternal hell is not universal in Islam but it’s not universal in Christianity either. I listed Islam only as an example where the concept is found at all. Sorry if I was misleading in my implication.
Salaam to you too, Aldebaran. I’ve quite enjoyed your posts since you’ve been here. I’ve learned a lot from reading them. I’ve been meaning to tell you that. I hope you plan to stick with the SDMB for a while. We have a shortage of articulate Muslim perspectives here and yours is quite welcome.
Interesting to see Franko posts here.
As for heaven or hell, I’m most afraid of what I consider to be the “big black”…nothingness.
My biggest fear is that I go into oblivion, not remembering my life or anything I did while alive.
I don’t find anything to tell me otherwise, so this is what I face.
PS. Hello to reprise.
I hope this means that if I stick to what I believe, then I’m OK . It’s a bit of a run-on sentence and I’m not sure where the divisions are (and I’m not sure who Sabians might be)–is it “Christians who believe in God and…” or is it “those…who believe in God and…”? I don’t believe there’s a god, but I try to live by my beliefs (and I do have them) and act in a righteous manner.
Not that I’d change because of something that was written in a book.
I’m an atheist, but if I do turn up wrong I’d definitely rather go to hell. I never got the whole point of heaven anyways. What, if I’m good and don’t do anything I want to I can spend eternity still not doing anything I want to while continually praising some perverse father figure? This is good how?
Hell is the place to be, man. It’s going to be an eternal party. Yeah yeah, I know, fire and brimstone and pitchforks, blah blah. What, Satan is gonna be torturing all the people who came down on his side? Nope, it’s gonna be booze and hot easy chicks forever. All the best bands playing live. Plus we can string up Hitler, Osama, and Falwell and use them for pinatas.
But if it’s hell, won’t Osama and Falwell be using you as a pinata?
Ah, but you forget, if the bible is real and whatnot, there’s going to be a LOT of people in hell. And it’s not going to be just the really evil people, it’s going to be everyone who didn’t buy into the whole worship this god in this way thing. That means the rabid evil types will be far outweighed by the Buddhists and Vikings and such. Pretty much anyone you’d want to have in a room with you for more than five minutes is headed downstairs. I’d take my chances on sheer numbers for the good guys winning out.
Besides, the evil despots aren’t going to have any armies or followings. You think the suicide bombers are sticking to the game plan when they don’t get their seventy virgins? It’s all back to square one.
How do you know they don’t get their virgins? What if they do, but they get bored with them? What happens then?
Pfft. Like there are gonna be virgins in hell. On the other hand when they land in a mile deep pile of hookers they might be grateful. Of course they’ll be way too busy to do anything else, and then it’s just as good as the other way around.
Suppose you just be as kind, and as generous as you can possibly be to everyone you meet, throughout your entire life, just because it would be a good thing to do so. Suppose you were especially careful to make an effort to reply with kindness when you were greeted with spite. Suppose you made sure that your own good fortune was shared with those you knew had had less fortune than you have. Suppose you did these things without thinking of a reward in eternity, and without any belief that God would prefer that you do so, but chose them because what is good and kind is better than what is selfish and cruel. Suppose you chose good, whenever you could, and avoided hurting anyone, as much as you possibly could.
If you were an atheist, and you were right, it might just mean you had lived a life which could be an example to any man. You might make the world a better place, while you were alive, and even after you had died. And if you were an atheist, and you were wrong, God might notice it. And he might look into your heart. And He might say to you, “As you have done for Me, so I shall do for you”, and welcome you into Heaven. And of course, you would say, “When did I do that for you?” Someone would explain that part to you.
Tris
Now that you mention it, I’m considering what might be like, a virgin. In Hell.
I’m grabbing another beer and saluting Al Keith. He DiiEED for his beer, you know.
Eh, look away. Look away.
So if I did all that, and was kind to everyone, and there wasn’t actually any God at all, would that make me just a regular person?
Are the regular people you know like that?
Like what?
You said if I did all that . . . excetra . . . would I be a regular person.
Asking if the regular people you know are like that is not a vague reference. Try and keep up.
Tris