Atheists: Why are you so sure of your non-belief?

I guess this is a question, but it will quickly turn into a GD, so I’ll just start it here.

I see many on the board who are proud atheists; there is no God/gods, afterlife or souls. I wonder how you are so sure. My first guess would be that since you have seen no evidence of such a thing, then you don’t believe. Fair enough. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Would you not have to concede that if there were something supernatural “out there” that your human mind would not know of such a thing? I can understand agnosticism, but I can’t grasp how one could say definitively that there is nothing beyond our mortal existence.

:: takes off usual Athena-worshipper hat ::

Can I answer as a technical agnostic but practical atheist?

In the first place, the vast majority of the world’s religions are incompatible with one another. Certainly the claims of, say, Pentecostal Christianity (the faith in which I was raised) cannot be reconciled with those of Sufism, Bahai, Islam, or even Catholicism when you get right down to it. Since they clearly cannot all be right, either all but one of them are wrong, or all of them are wrong. I see no practical way of determining which one is right in the first instance; it seems more parsimonious to assume the latter. There’s no real evidence of the truth of any claim of the supernatural, so so why should any claim be given a bye? Why should I believe in Jesus rather than Thor?

In the second place–and here I’ll specifically restrict myself to religions that claim that God is sovereign and beneficent*–there’s plenty of trivially observable phenomena that seem to argue against it. You’d think that, if Jesus were real, he’d have looked at Rwanda in 1990, seen one group of his followers massacreing and raping another group, and said, “Oh, hell no. Fuck that shit. Time to put on my Aslan suit and go eat some evil-doers.”

In the third place, in my judgment the emphasis of many religions on a blissful post-death existence compensating for the horrors and travails of this world seems utterly misguided to me. It’s an excuse for the powerful not to care about the plight of the suffering, and an attempt to persuade the suffering to meekly accept their state. I see more evidence of a malign and hateful deity, or an incompetent one, than one who either benevolent or competent.

That’s just off the top of my head. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I will put my Athena-priest hat back on.

*No, I did NOT mean to write omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibevenolent.

How are you so sure that there are no unicorns?

Pink, invisible unicorns. That’s right; they’re both pink and invisible. You just need to believe.

For all any of us know, when we die we go to a world populated with pink, invisible unicorns. That doesn’t mean I believe such a thing, but how can you definitely say that in another dimension (or whatever) that there is no such thing?

How do you know they’re ‘proud’?

Some are sure because the usual claims of what defines God include things that are impossible such as breaking the laws of physics. Others are atheists without being sure of anything. You don’t have to be sure no gods exist to be an atheist.

Okay? You just admitted we have no evidence for something that I’m guessing you understand is a fantastic claim. That’s a reason not to believe. Should no evidence of absence now give us a reason to believe?

How do you define agnosticism? How do you define atheism?

You’ve been here for enough years to realize that no atheists here claim that there is nothing beyond our mortal existence. Don’t make straw man arguments.

If it’s occuring in another dimension, unless you can flit between dimensions, it may as well be a fiction.

How certain are you, on a scale of 1-10, that there is no world populated by pink, invisible unicorns? Maybe a 9.9999? My guess is you wouldn’t declare with absolute, air-tight certainty that there isn’t, but you’d be willing to bet the ranch.

Edit: If we’re going to get into what “atheism” is, I simply define it as lack of theism. If the answer to the question “Do you believe there is a god?” is anything but yes, I reckon you lack theism.

If you don’t believe in such a thing then you are an a-pink invisible unicornist.

I know of no atheists that make claims of absolute knowledge in anything other than maybe “I am.”

Faith, whether it is in service of the unprovable or refutation of the unprovable remains a mysterious human quality.

A mind decided is no longer a rational mind. Doesn’t science demand that we continue to remain open to possibilities? On both sides of the fence?

That’s where I’m the most comfortable.

I’m open to the possibility of unicorns. As of now, I maintain my lack of belief that they exist.

I have always thought that agnosticism was a belief that we can’t really be sure if there is a God/gods.

Atheism is an affirmative belief that there is in fact NOT a higher being(s).

I don’t think that I am making straw man arguments. Over in the death/afterlife threads, the atheists are stating with certainty that this life is all we have; nothing before or after.

To offer a second response:

Does science demand that we remain open to the possibility that there’s an invisible, fire-breathing dragon in my garage, and in the possibility that when we die, we go to a world filled with pink unicorns?

Are you the most comfortable with remaining open to those possibilities? Over, say, believing that there isn’t an invisible fire-breathing dragon in my garage?

More importantly, what does “remaining open” mean? Does it mean anything other than what meanoldlady proposes?

Would you argue that it’s rational or irrational to base any actual, real-life decision on the possibility that there’s an invisible fire-breathing dragon in my garage?

MOL is sneaking up and tickling me. I have a recipe for her. :wink:

I think the best response to belief in the possiblity of something unquantifiable is not to narrow it with definitions. In other words, I doubt the unicorn is pink. Heh.

Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

Richard Feynman

Right. But it says nothing about belief.

No, it’s not. It’s being without belief in the existence of God/gods.

So, what does it mean to remain open to the possibility that when you die, you go to a world filled with unicorns of unknown color?

Is there any difference between how someone would rationally act if

  • she knew there was no unicorn-afterlife.

or if

-she chose to remain open to the possibility of a unicorn-afterlife.

Sure abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscence.
It’s just indicative of it.
Mostly, all of us, you, me, Skald, Carrot Top, whoever, go through life making assumptions based on the evidence at hand. You may not be completely sure that there isn’t a million bucks that just appeared magically in your pocket until you actually check it, but you can be pretty sure that such a thing is laughably improbable.
Well, most of us are just baffled at the idea of people not just believing that they do have the million bucks without even patting their pockets, but are even making plans under the assumption that they are magical millionaires. That’s all our problem.

If there’s something “out there” yet is so subtle that it never actually does anything to affect us, then what does it matter what we believe? There’s no use for religions or any sort of belief system to work around this so-subtle-as-to-be-invisible supernatural force. If it doesn’t affect anything, who cares?

No, religions (aside from some weak deists maybe) aren’t formed on the idea that there’s some non-interventional magical force out there. They’re built on the idea that there’s a very specific force, and here’s how he has shaped our world, and here’s how he affects the world we live in, and these are his rules, and this is why you kill infidels, etc. etc.

So either the power out there is so vague and so non-interventional that it doesn’t matter whether it exists, or there’s a power out there that’s specific and that some religion understands and that actively intervenes in our world - and actively intervening in our world would leave evidence. If the Earth formed spontaneously rather than having lots of lines of evidence for a very old, gradually developed planet, that would be evidence. If all the living creatures popped up suddenly at once in functional ecosystems, that would be evidence. If God healed all his loyal followers of all their diseases, that would be evidence. All of this stuff would be testable and observable.

So then we can rule out most forms of religion because they make these testable claims and yet fail (creation didn’t happen like in genesis, etc). The things that these religions believe would be useful - they would tell us something about the world or something about how to live our lives - if they were true. But they aren’t. So we’re left with “uhhh but you can’t prove there’s some vague non-intervening power out there! GOTCHA ATHEISTS HAHAHAHA!”. But what use is that? If something has no effect on our lives and doesn’t have any effect on the natural world, why do you need a belief about it? What purpose does that belief serve?

Religious people like to proclaim some very specific things (this is who god is, here’s his rulebook, etc) but when you start asking for evidence it becomes “hey, you can’t disprove there’s not some vague undetectable power out there! Can’t prove a negative! THEREFORE MY SPECIFIC VIEW OF GOD IS CORRECT!”

God may exist. It’s pretty clear that no religion I’m aware of describes him because they all make factually incorrect claims about the history of the world and nature. Leprechauns may exist. There’s equal evidence and non-evidence for either. There’s simply no reason to believe in either - that doesn’t require a positive statement that they don’t exist. In fact even the more militant atheists will often say “your specific idea of god almost certainly doesn’t exist” rather than “certainly”, and that’s the more logically defensible position, although they’re practically extremely similar.

Atheists just dismiss the god belief due to a long period of zero evidence. There is nothing to hang onto.
Those who actually claim to know are the religious people. They state that they know god exists .We atheist just dismiss it as totally lacking any proof whatsoever.

Poppycock. Wrong. Trite. And unmitigated bullshit. Absence of evidence is, indeed, evidence of absence - **when evidence should be present. As there should be for any deity put forward by the world’s religions.