Thanks, pseudotriton ruber ruber. I hope you don’t mind that I didn’t find it all that funny. Not offensive – just not funny.
I do have to question the wisdom of keeping your atheism to yourself. By staying silent, aren’t we encouraging misconceptions and prejudices to flourish? When the only people who speak up are often a little brash or rude, that paints us all in the same light.
I wish I could say that I believed that the prejudice against athiests is overstated, but after this thread, I was shocked at how much, even here on the Dope, a number of people were making the automatic assumption that without religion moral behavior is impossible.
That said, I’m still not comfortable with the more extreme atheist types whom I tend to refer as evangelical atheist. Nor the ones who start criticizing things that are, I believe, insoluble. I don’t mean this as an attack, but, for example - PRR, how would you attempt to even regulate what a parent is teaching his/her children? For that matter, what about all the other things that parents instill in their children, that bypass any kind of rational analysis?
“Atheists need to just shut up is meaningless” - although it’s insulting - because not all atheists are saying the same thing. Some keep their views to themselves and have no problem with things like ceremonial deism, others do, others think the whole religion thing is moronic and dangerous and should be kept down. There must be a plurality opinion but there’s nothing approaching a consensus. ‘Just shut up’ means some people take our existence as an insult or threat to their religion, and as an individual atheist, their insecurity is not my problem.
I don’t feel like a second-class citizen, and I do think some people take their convictions farther than they need to - but I also feel that some groups of people don’t fully respect our rights. I see no reason to shut up about that.
Oh, the bias is out there all right. Most of the time it’s as automatic and well meaning as being told “god bless you” fifty times a day from customers on the phone–well, shit, did anyone ASK me if I want their god blessing me? Nope, just assumed that I believe the way they do and that I’m gonna feel all warm and fuzzy inside for their good wishes. Good wishes would be fine, but why drag the religion into it? Wouldn’t it be enough to just say “bless you” and let me assume it was the happy customer speaking, rather than the deity’s hand up his ass moving his mouth around?
My ten year old grandson caught shit from a bunch of evangelical raised christian kids in his class because during a discussion of religion he flatly stated that he doesn’t believe in a god and never intends to do so. Enter months of nastiness and kids yelling at him that he’s going to hell, etc., etc., until my daughter finally forced the school administration to set up a meeting with her and the other parents to make it clear to them that NO form of harassment is okay in school–but the parents really thought (and still do) that their children have the god given right to say anything they want to another student in the name of Jesus. The only thing that backed them off was the school informing them the kids would be suspended or expelled if they didn’t knock off the harassment.
In spite of the fact that my ex-husband is an adult Scout, Eagle Scout, Vigil Order of the Arrow, etc., he won’t get to see my grandson through these stages since the kid’s outspoken atheism isn’t allowed in the scouts. That’s a bit of a disappointment for the ex, y’know? He’s pretty much an agnostic himself, but he’s closeted because he really likes scouting.
Joho’s and Mormons will NOT stop coming to my door, in defiance of the “no soliciting or religious witnessing” signs–they’re above the law, dont’cha know, since they’re following the sky pixie directives and none of this pertains to them. How arrogant and annoying is that? I have to offer to have sex with them in order to get them to leave, and the Joho’s have started bringing small children along, so even that recourse is out.
That pervasive attitude that atheists are morally bankrupt–as though it requires a godframe to keep everyone in check. I explain that there are exoskeletal and endoskeletal types–some need to have those sets of rules in place to keep them from being assholes, whereas others (like me) have our own internal frameworks keeping us on track. One of my fondest moments was listening to my evangelical christian (but not dogmatic) friend chastise a member of his church who was babbling on about how eeeeevil non christians are in my presence (never once did it occur to him that he might not be preaching to the choir, as it were!) by telling him that actually atheists are stronger and tend to be more strictly ethical and moral precisely because the atheist doesn’t have a landing net. He explained that a christian can do appalling things but be forgiven and everything’s just peachy, whereas the atheist won’t let herself off the hook if she violates her own code of ethics and so is more likely to act rightly. Shut the godstricken one RIGHT down!
“In God we trust.” “One nation, under God.” Swearing on bibles. Exemption of churches from taxation. Gays are evil sinners. The state enforcing a religious bias regarding marriage–one man, one woman, the way GOD intended! How does this not violate the separation of church and state? Abortion clinics bombed and health care workers threatened. Religious prohibitions regarding scientific breakthroughs like stem cell research and methods of birth control having the force of law. Telling atheists they should just shut up is just as ignorand and wrong and patronizing as some Orange County conservative spouting off that “I don’t see any racism on my street, so them niggers & spics & camel jockeys should just shut up!” or “it’s cold today, global warming must be a crock!”
I’m fully willing to allow anyone to be stupid in their own way and think anything they like, but when their unreasoning prejudices get airtime and credence and laws passed due to having been mandated by the sky pixie, it gets right up my nose. Freedom OF religion includes freedom FROM religion, and it’s about time we put religion in its proper place, as a personal choice with no other validity outside the personal sphere.
This atheist has no more intention of shutting up than the loudmouthed religionists. Let them back the fuck off and shut the fuck up and I’ll consider it, but not a moment before. They’ve had their turn, it’s time to put them in their place–back in their churches and out of the legislature.
I dunno. Probably no more than the Christians who see their faith besmirched by the continuing existence of Phred “the Phucker” Phelps, or Jews and Meir Kahane, or, well, Muslims and al Qaida. Makes more sense for me to keep it under my big ugly hat, due to the people I encounter and deal with. Although, to be fair, ones faith or lack thereof isn’t something that ordinarily comes up in everyday conversation.
If and only if they feel like they are victims, and a overwhelming majority are not.
Interesting point, but I’m not interested in being an agnostic exemplar. Nope, I don’t believe that there’s a god. Even if there was a higher power, I don’t think that’s even something our little monkey brains could fully comprehend or communicate with. However, that may be the only thing I have in common with other agnostics or athiests.
There are people who have known me for years and years and definitely don’t know that I’m agnostic. It’s just not important to my life. If they found out I was agnostic, I wouldn’t be ashamed. It’s just something that doesn’t affect my personal or professional relationships. I’ve had people try to witness to me and I usually just say that I appreciate their time, but I’m not interested. I’ve NEVER had anyone give me any shit nor treat me differently.
Part of it is because I live in a liberal part of the country, and believe me, that is by choice. However, I think that everything is exactly as big of a deal as you want to make of it. I’m not going to get upset if anyone want to tell me I’m going to hell or that I need to get right with Jesus. It’s just their opinion, and I let it roll off my back. Reacting badly is what will reflect poorly on other athiests.
Yeah, it’s gotta be worse in Islamic countries. I’ve heard the Koran has a passage, or at the very least one of those authoritative glosses they do, that says you are supposed to kill atheists. Lovely.
The thing is, the mere act of speaking up is considered “brash and rude” by the type of people who say atheists should Just Shut Up.
It’s a lot like people who see two men holding hands and refer to it as “those gays forcing their lifestyle down our throats.”
This is where I have a fucking problem:
To answer your own question:
Very fucking arrogant…of you! Pot meet kettle.
I understand what you’re saying, but to disrespect other’s religions–despite how you feel about them–is almost as bad as what you are accusing them of doing.
I think the issue is that nobody wants to hear it–theists don’t want to be harangued at any more than atheists would want to have missionaries haranguing at them, and other atheists don’t need to hear the message since they already agree with it.
Certainly. But I have no qualms offending people like that.
Sure, nobody wants to hear it, atheists or theists.
However, the theists constantly broadcast their beliefs. They’ve got huge untaxed buildings, their god’s name on our money and in our politics, and their prayers in our schools- and yet if atheists say anything like, “We’d really prefer not to have your beliefs forced on the rest of us”, they say we’re persecuting them!
That shit is fucked up.
Born and raised an atheist in California, I had never had anyone have a problem with my atheism. I went to UC Berkeley and that certainly solidified my liberal and atheist tendencies. This was totally accepted. It never occurred to me that someone might hate me or villify me for my lack of belief.
But then I lived and worked in Vermont, and let me tell you it was quite different. Although Burlington is quite liberal, I was treated as a second class citizen at work because I did not go to church with nearly everyone else there. My boss got angry when he caught me spoofing WWJD? with my own name instead of Jesus. I eventually got fired because of my “attitude”. The experience left such a bad taste in my mouth that I chose to move back to California.
I now have the good fortune of living in the San Francisco Bay Area and working in a laboratory. I have no problems whatsoever with my atheism here, in fact, theists are definitely in the minority. I have received nothing but kudos - no imaginary “attitude” problems here. The few theists in the company are not picked on, harassed, made fun of, or argued with (one young atheist excepted, and she has her head up her ass).
Who are these militant atheists? They don’t exist. Wanting to get rid of “In God We Trust”, one nation “under God” and other issues regarding our government and religion is not unreasonable or militant - it’s in the damn Constitution, it’s called “separation of church and state”. Some atheists may talk shit, but you aren’t going to see any atheists burning down churches or protesting funerals. You aren’t going to see any atheists insisting on abolishing other people’s right to worship their own god. Some of us may think it’s stupid, illogical and ridiculous and go ahead and say so, but none of us want to amend the constitution to prohibit religion. Stating our opinion is not the same as working toward the abolition of religion. It’s called freedom of speech. It’s a pity that so many americans can’t see the difference.
I used to demur or change the subject whenever religion came up in a conversation because I didn’t want to get into any arguments over my lack of belief.
However, I’ve since come to believe that there’s very little difference between being “in the closet” as a queer and being “in the closet” as an atheist. It is who I am (the atheist part, not the queer), and it’s not anything that I’m ashamed of and it’s actually important for atheists as a whole for as many of us as possible to be “out”. Being publicly and blatantly atheist helps dispell the ignorance that many believers have about us.
I don’t proselytize. I don’t go out looking for fights. But if the topic of religion comes up I’m very upfront about what I (don’t) believe.
I have to say that it’s a lot easier being “out” in L.A. than it was being “out” in Cary, North Carolina … .
Dear Og, one would think that you’d have stayed in Vermont for the weather alone!
Exactly!
Hey, if you’re having a nice conversation among friends, and you mention a recipe you saw in your church bulletin, and someone jumps in, “You go to church? Don’t you realize there is no god? How can you be so dumb?!” Then, yes, absolutely, that person should shut the fuck up. I bet this kind of thing happens occasionally, especially with people who have recently deconverted.
However, that is NOT what the stupid bitch on CNN was referring to. She was responding to a story about atheist families who failed to adequately conceal their beliefs being ostracized. The implication of her contributions was that atheists being open about their beliefs or objecting to government endorsement of religion are somehow persecuting her and her kind, or at the least unnecessarily whining.
That said, I try to guard against playing the victim personally. I live in North Carolina, I’m open about my atheism (I even have a sticker on my car), and I can’t recall getting any flak for it. I have neighborhood friends who are all religious, and are perfectly friendly and respectful. I’m glad for my situation, but I am also aware and concerned about negative attitudes out there. My kid also hasn’t gone to school yet - there may be problems when that time comes.
How does this violate the “establishment clause” of the First Amendment? Though the prohibition on gay marriage is, in my opinion, wrong-headed, it appears to represent the will of the populous. Could prohibitions on gay marriage be unconstitutional for reasons other than what you cited? Some folks certainly believe so, but it’s my understanding that the seeds of their arguments find more purchase in the Fourteenth, not First, Amendment. Alternatively, could you find a virulently homophobic atheist? I know some.
Are you saying theists should not be allowed to hold office, or should not allow religious faith to influence the way that they approach issues?
You’re going to find that the whispers of 95% of the population, in concert, are going to drown out the screams of the other five. As an atheist, you share a belief system with a very small minority of Americans. It should not surprise you that others assume you’re a theist of some sort; though, it is unacceptable for someone to be rude to you simply because of your atheism. I guess I don’t seem to understand your beef here in so much as it exceeds the rudeness of some theists once they discover your atheism – and your beef does certainly seem to exceed that circumstance. It’s as if you’re mad that theism is prevalent and discernable, that theists have the gall to congregate and exclude – and not just in public institutions and the government. You’ve complained that a private organization with some faith based component isn’t going to allow your relative to be included because of his atheism? That surprises you? Really? My bet is that he’s probably not going to get to be an acolyte either – so long as he is open about his atheism, I should say.
what year did you write this post? how prevalent is this school prayer, in the present, in “our” schools"?
It’s not. However, in the past, this has been an issue- and not the too distant past, either, as I seem to recall reading a related article just a few days ago. And how long ago was the Santa Fe, TX football game prayer event? Wikipedia says just six years ago. That one stuck in my head because I attended that school when I was but a wee tyke, and I remember the prayers.
We STILL see theists using the “Atheists want to stop us from praying in school!” argument all the time, even though it’s a strawman.
Does the fact that one example I gave may not be as prevalent as the others are invalidate my entire post?