The issue about atheists being militant seems to be a response to the ‘Blasphemy Challenge.’ The idea is that you would video yourself openly disavowing God. You can do it anonymously, but the key thing is that according to scripture that’s the one sin you can’t be forgiven for. You can rape babies all day and take the presto-change-o last minute repentance straight to the pearly gates, but if you merely disavow God you may never be forgiven. It’s an aggressive but apt criticism of that notion in the Christian faith. They’re not converting young people. They’re just encouraging people to stop fearing God.
The whole notion that atheists somehow don’t have moral principles is amusing, something akin to that line from the Big Lebowski. Sure, all these religions encourage killing infidels – but at least they believe in God.
I think you’re missing half the issue. The complaint is that theists congregate, discuss, exclude, proselytize, debate, study, etc., and then if an atheist merely identifies himself as such, a theist says, “Atheist should just shut up,” as though we are imposing ourselves on them.
As for prayer in school, there are always a few current cases involving challenges to government endorsement of religion in public schools. A year or two ago there was a case here of a “biology” textbook discussing how God gave things different smells - I think it even talked about Jesus. And as **Lightnin’ ** says, theist agitators are still constantly screaming about atheists trying to “take prayer out of schools,” when no such thing has ever happened. The CNN woman also mentioned prayer in schools a couple times.
The big case was in, I believe, 1963, they’ve been hemming up the law since then.
And the statement “Atheists want to stop us from praying in school” is not a strawman, though it’s anachronistic. Atheists (along with many theists) have mostly suceeded in getting prayer out of public schools. It’s certainly more dubious for an atheist to lament school prayer in 2007 than it is for a theist to say, “Atheists want to stop us from praying in school” when they certainly aready have.
And it’s not that one of your examples was no longer prevalent; it’s simply no longer true. Yes, that matters.
I really don’t think most theists believe that, although I imagine it’s a common attitude among fundamentalists. I think it’s more a case of the average person just considering the whole thing a bore. For example, I agree that “In God We Trust” doesn’t belongs on ouir currency, and I don’t think the President should say “God Bless The United States” after every speech, but I just can’t get worked up enough about it to care.
You’re confusing “people praying in public school” with “government agents using their powers to force children to pray in school.”
No one has ever been able (nor attempted AFAIK) to remove prayer from public schools. That is why the frequent lament is a strawman. If people trotting out this argument wanted to be honest, they would at the very least throw an “organized” in before the word prayer.
I am not confusing anything, though apparently, I haven’t been clear enough. Please reread all of my posts on this subject with the modifer “organized” in front of the phrase “prayer in school,” as it was my intent for it to be read so. Honestly, I didn’t think anyone on this board would think that when I wrote of ridding the schools of prayer I meant anything other than organized prayer – thought control still being on the horizon and all – but I guess some have.
whole bean, I’m not trying to insult your intelligence. I’m sure reasonable people are aware of this distinction. The point is that proponents of forced school prayer like to use terms like “remove prayer from public school” because the subtext of that phrase is that atheists are trying to use their evil powers to forcibly prevent poor innocent Christians of their fundamental right to pray!
It’s apposite because this thread discusses playing the victim card, and I’m pretty sure painting the ~95% majority as a victimized out-group brings a lot of cash rolling in to the more extreme advocacy groups and “churches.” It also gives the impression (at least to those who get caught up in the emotional appeal and don’t think things through, which is a depressingly high number) that atheists are in control and attempting to stamp out a worldview opposing their own, when in fact, the situation is exactly the opposite, and atheist actions are merely objections to such abuses.
Homophobia has nothing to do with it. The states have decreed that no marriage is legal without a state issued license. These licenses are given out, not to ANY citizen, but only to those citizens who fit the religiously defined criteria of those allowed to marry. The state is discriminating against SOME of its citizens based purely on religious prohibitions, and it doesn’t make a damned bit of difference how many of the “populous” [sic] think this is a-okay, because it is not. I’m sure there are areas in this country in which it could be popularly voted in that it’s allowable to deny a marriage license to a mixed race couple, but just because a majority of foolish people want a certain thing does not make it right, and the fact that they have to hide behind religion to lend their prejudices moral weight is pretty telling and indicates it can’t be justified by rational means.
People of any belief are entitled to hold any office they like, however their personal religiously founded beliefs regarding conduct have no place in the performance of the job they’ve been elected to do. Isn’t it interesting that the vast majority of religiously based legislation is intended to stop OTHER people from doing what the religious consider to be abhorrent? If you think abortion, drug use, fornication, birth control, multiple or same sex (or both) marriage, alcohol use, dancing or any other activity is naughty, then simply don’t do it. My objection starts when some religious maniac wants to deny me my liberties because he doesn’t like certain things I have decided for myself are acceptable. I, on the other hand, am not attempting to make any laws forbidding what the religionists wish to do aside from preventing them from abridging my rights to personal autonomy, and for this I am told that I should “just shut up.” Well, fuck that.
If you’ll read my post, I think you’ll see that I’m only irritated about the prevalence and smug assumption by most that everyone shares their views on religion, much as I’m irritated by the smug assumptions held by many Americans that the rest of the world shares our viewpoints. My anger is reserved for those who go a step further and insist that I be forcibly restrained by their personally chosen strictures. As for the fiction that a majority rule is always right, all I have to say is one of my favorite quotes from Anatole France: “If fifty million men say a foolish thing, it is yet a foolish thing.” I’m unfortunate in that I live in a country full of stupid people, however I’d be remiss if I allowed them to exercise their stupidity unopposed and unchallenged.
As for the Boy Scouts, there are a growing number of organizations, including United Way, who are pulling out of funding them and withdrawing previously allowed access to government owned facilities because allowing them preference and access violates the First Amendment due to their exclusionary practices. They can keep their attitudes all they want, as long as they aren’t receiving benefits from any governmental agency while they do so. Boy Scouts used to recruit at schools during school time and troops were allowed to use school facilities for meetings–this is not right and should not continue.
And, Nutty Bunny, my venting my irritation on a message board is NOT the same thing for the above referenced reasons. I think anyone and everyone is entitled to think any stupid thing they like, and that includes me–it’s when those thoughts become habits, the habits become socially enforced behaviors and those behaviors are made into laws that I have a big problem. I have longstanding and deep friendships with many religionists of quite the variety and they all have one thing in common–they believe that their faiths, beliefs and rules are personal and between them and their deity ONLY and are not binding on any other person. It’s comedy gold when we get the staunch Catholic former seminarian, the evangelical Christians, a couple of Buddhists, the Mormon and Seventh Day Adventists together with me as the token atheist/pagan and have a fabulous discourse on doctrine. Every one of these people agrees with me that religiously based lawmaking has no place in our government and half of them agree that religions should pay taxes. Sure wish the rest of the religious types were as smart as the people I hang with, because there wouldn’t be a problem…
I live in the East Bay also. I’m not sure that theists are a minority, but the diversity here is so great that theists who want to ram religion down our throats are a minority. A few years back a Christian on our school board wanted to establish a day of prayer. Another school board member, Jewish, told he he’d personally sue the district if she tried. That wrapped it up for the prayer idea. Our biology texts have decent sections on evolution also.
I think the militant atheist meme comes from the fact that people have written generally readable books on atheism (as opposed to those that are more philosophy) and they’ve had the nerve to get on the best seller lists. This has led to more articles on atheism in the papers than I’ve ever seen before, and they are less bogus than the once a year articles from past years. I can imagine the Christians, having the fact that not everyone believes in their god getting rubbed in their faces by its appearance in newspapers, feeling put upon.
I spent a couple of years substituting at (5 or 6) different high schools both in Tennessee and Virginia in 1998 and 1999. My dad is still a high school librarian in Virginia, and has verified that this is still going on daily at his school. At each of these schools, kids are allowed to go and stand around the flagpole each morning and hold hands and silently pray. The majority of teachers join them. No big deal, right? Except that prior to the meeting the more aggressively Christian students run up and down the hallways and in and out of classrooms recruiting kids to join them. They will gather in gangs of 3 or 4 around a single kid and harangue him to join. After the prayer, the Christian kids will return to the building rosy cheeked and full of the Holy Spirit, and continue the harassment of the missing students. Shouts of “Where were you? We didn’t see you outside this morning, Kenny! Make sure and be there tomorrow or we will come and get you! Your aunt/cousin/pastor/mother asked me to make sure you are there each day!” This calling out of absentee kids goes on throughout the entire school day. Cafeteria, gym, between classes. None of this is said in a quietly menacing tone, in fact- all comments that I witnessed were said in a peculiar singsong voice. (think Reese Witherspoon in Election). But if any of you think that this level of peer pressure isn’t harassment, you are wrong. The kids being pressured hide, dodge, look sick, run into bathrooms, and generally try to squirm out of their skin to avoid the confrontation. The teachers who join in the prayer are also aware of who does and does not appear for these prayer meetings, and those absentee kids are treated with open hostility at worst, and at best: disregard.
Does anyone here deny that this behavior condones segregation, peer pressure, harassment, and discrimination by Christians?
I spent a couple of years substituting at (5 or 6) high schools both in Tennessee and Virginia in 1998 and 1999. My dad is still a high school librarian in Virginia, and has verified that this is still going on daily at his high school. At each of these schools, kids are allowed to go and stand around the flagpole each morning and hold hands and silently pray. The majority of teachers join them. No big deal, right? Except that prior to the meeting the more aggressively Christian students run up and down the hallways and in and out of classrooms recruiting kids to join them. They will gather in gangs of 3 or 4 around a single kid and harangue him to join. After the prayer, the Christian kids will return to the building rosy cheeked and full of the Holy Spirit, and continue the harassment of the missing students. “Where were you? We didn’t see you outside this morning, Kenny! Make sure and be there tomorrow or we will come and get you! Your aunt asked me to make sure you are there each day!” None of this is said in a menacing tone, in fact- all comments that I witnessed were said in a peculiar singsong voice with the most pleasant of tone. (think Reese Witherspoon in Election). But if any of you think that this level of peer pressure isn’t harassment, you are wrong. The kids being pressured hide, dodge, look sick, run into bathrooms, and generally try to squirm out of their skin to avoid the confrontation. The teachers who join in the prayer are also aware of who does and does not appear for these prayer meetings, and those absentee kids are treated with open hostility at worst, and at best: disregard.
Does anyone here deny that this behavior condones segregation, peer pressure, harassment, and discrimination?
I agree that people shouldn’t shove their religions down our throats and base their lawmaking on their belief system. It makes me angry or at the very least shake my head in disbelief.
If you have deep friendships with many religionists, as you say, I think they would be quite disappointed to read the disrespectful things you said about their religions. It makes YOU sound arrogant, which is one of the things Atheists are complaining about being accused of, isn’t it?
People will always notice the most extreme followers of any religion/non-religion. On the one hand, there are people like Jerry Falwell, who blame 9/11 on the gays and on the other hand, there are the Atheists who denigrate someone’s religion as “following the sky pixie”. I’m not equating the two, just giving examples. Jerry Falwell is on the faaaaar end of the scale than a disrespectful Atheist. But both do more harm than good for their respective sides.
Can’t you stand up for what you see as injustice without insulting people?
I don’t have a problem with the point you were making, I have a problem with the arrogant “I’m smarter than you crazy Christians” attitude.
I know you weren’t responding to a reply to your post, but since you’ve picked up the mantle, ever thought to call the ACLU or do you think this sort of stuff is okay? The statement I was responding to, was one that implied that organized prayer in school was lawful.
It’s so typical that the reaction to your post giving specific instances of religious people being offensive and obnoxious in real life is “you said something nasty about theists.” Obviously we’re supposed to shut up and take it.
As a former Scout, and the son of a Scout leader, I think BSA went to hell when they moved from New Jersey to New Mexico. Two supporting things here. The Sea Scouts used to have a city subsidized moorage in the Berkely Marina. The city, obeying state and city law against subsidizing organizations that discriminate based on religion and sexual orientation, pulled the support. I’ve randomly gotten two letters from the Sea Scout master just in a perfect fit about how Berkley is oppressing them, and violating their right to religiously discriminate. At this point I don’t even put out cans for the scouts. Girl Scouts, no problem of course.
Numero two-o, my father used to be the Scoutmaster of the UN Boy Scout Troop. This was 1950, but atheism was just dandy for them (maybe the only positive contribution ever of the Soviet Union.) A Scout is Reverent was replaced by “A Scout follows the UN Charter.” The kids seemed to do fine.
As for the JWs, when I greeted them by cheerfully saying this was a devout atheist household, they ran like the devil was on their tails and have never returned. I did this because before this I greeted some Baptists by saying I wasn’t interested, being Jewish. They then started in on saving my soul. I had to go into my “You fucking Christians killed my ancestors” rant (nominated for an Obie.) They never returned either.
The West Texas football prayer case wasn’t brought by an atheist, but by a Catholic and a Mormon, who objected to not just Christiian prayers, but specific Protestant prayers being given. I believe they, and others daring to stand up for the Constitution, suffered quite a lot of hate, death threats, and other such godly activities. I could probably get away with making a stink in the Bay Area, which implies that I don’t have to.
