[QUOTE=whole bean]
I know you weren’t responding to a reply to your post, but since you’ve picked up the mantle, ever thought to call the ACLU or do you think this sort of stuff is okay? The statement I was responding to, was one that implied that organized prayer in school was lawful.
[/QUOTE]
The thing is, that’s EXACTLY the sort of thing theists proclaim as “persecution”.
[QUOTE=SmartAleq]
Homophobia has nothing to do with it. The states have decreed that no marriage is legal without a state issued license.
[/QUOTE]
Homophobia has as much if not more to do with it than theism, as I am sure you are aware that many theists do not oppose homosexual marriage.
[QUOTE=SmartAleq]
These licenses are given out, not to ANY citizen, but only to those citizens who fit the religiously defined criteria of those allowed to marry. The state is discriminating against SOME of its citizens based purely on religious prohibitions, and it doesn’t make a damned bit of difference how many of the “populous” [sic] think this is a-okay, because it is not. . . I’m sure there are areas in this country in which it could be popularly voted in that it’s allowable to deny a marriage license to a mixed race couple, but just because a majority of foolish people want a certain thing does not make it right, and the fact that they have to hide behind religion to lend their prejudices moral weight is pretty telling and indicates it can’t be justified by rational means.
[/QUOTE]
Good example. And those miscegenation laws were challenged on the basis of what? A law can be unconstitutional without running afoul of the First Amendment. I have a hard time seeing how marriage laws violate the prohibition against making a law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. How do you get there? I can think of other parts of the Constitution one could argue such laws run afoul of, but I don’t see it here.
[QUOTE=SmartAleq]
As for the Boy Scouts, there are a growing number of organizations, including United Way, who are pulling out of funding them and withdrawing previously allowed access to government owned facilities because allowing them preference and access violates the First Amendment due to their exclusionary practices. They can keep their attitudes all they want, as long as they aren’t receiving benefits from any governmental agency while they do so. Boy Scouts used to recruit at schools during school time and troops were allowed to use school facilities for meetings–this is not right and should not continue.
[/QUOTE]
What does the United Way have to do with the Establishment Clause and the Boy Scouts?
[QUOTE=Lightnin’]
The thing is, that’s EXACTLY the sort of thing theists proclaim as “persecution”.
[/QUOTE]
I’d offer you a cupie doll, but I always misspell it.
-Joe
[QUOTE=Unauthorized Cinnamon]
That said, I try to guard against playing the victim personally. I live in North Carolina, I’m open about my atheism (I even have a sticker on my car), and I can’t recall getting any flak for it. I have neighborhood friends who are all religious, and are perfectly friendly and respectful. I’m glad for my situation, but I am also aware and concerned about negative attitudes out there. My kid also hasn’t gone to school yet - there may be problems when that time comes.
[/QUOTE]
When I was in Charlotte a few years ago for a conference the local paper had a column saying that the locals really should cut down on the God Loves you and Jesus Loves you etc. directed at strangers, because they were scaring the tourists.
[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
Does anyone here deny that this behavior condones segregation, peer pressure, harassment, and discrimination by Christians?
[/QUOTE]
Atheist or not, this is a problem for all people who are not comfortable with the idea of praying as a group. As a non-Christian religious person, I would at best be offended and at worst (as a theoretical parental unit) calling out the school to correct kids who did this because it is bullying behavior, regardless of the tone of voice.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
The West Texas football prayer case wasn’t brought by an atheist, but by a Catholic and a Mormon, who objected to not just Christiian prayers, but specific Protestant prayers being given. I believe they, and others daring to stand up for the Constitution, suffered quite a lot of hate, death threats, and other such godly activities. I could probably get away with making a stink in the Bay Area, which implies that I don’t have to.
[/QUOTE]
I acknowledge the work of many theists in the establishment clause cases upthread.
[QUOTE=Lightnin’]
The thing is, that’s EXACTLY the sort of thing theists proclaim as “persecution”.
[/QUOTE]
Let them proclaim; they will be wrong. When the law is on the atheists’s (and theist-no-organized-prayer-in-school crowd) side and they fail to see to it that the law is enforced (with the hand dandy aid of the always ready (and free) ACLU), then I can’t see what all their crying is about?
Whiner: Late night noise is such a problem on my street!
Sensible Listener: Call the cops.
Whiner: Yeah, but then the kids will complain that we’re being too strict.
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Snort.
I must have missed the part of the Atheist Holy Book that says that atheists are supposed to be humble and turn the other cheek.
-Joe
[/QUOTE]
that’s cause it was only handed out to the non-asshole atheists
[QUOTE=whole bean]
that’s cause it was only handed out to the non-asshole atheists
[/QUOTE]
No, just those of us who have at ability to see the patent hypocrisy in what most of your religious types are generally up to.
Remember, kids, you only have to do the parts of Jesus’s teachings that give you what you want!
-Joe
[QUOTE=whole bean]
Whiner: Late night noise is such a problem on my street!
Sensible Listener: Call the cops.
Whiner: Yeah, but then the kids will complain that we’re being too strict.
[/QUOTE]
Cops: Sure, the law may be on your side, but I was out there making all that noise with all of my friends. Oh, and the harassment you’ve gotten since you tried to press charges? Yeah, well, you should’ve just shut up. Next time you’ll know better.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
It’s so typical that the reaction to your post giving specific instances of religious people being offensive and obnoxious in real life is “you said something nasty about theists.” Obviously we’re supposed to shut up and take it.
[/QUOTE]
Uh, maybe because it’s an easy to spot instance of hypocrisy. You shouldn’t have to take it, but if you’re complainign about having to take it, you shouldn’t be dishing it out while doing so. Even my feeble theist brain cells can lasso that one in.
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
No, just those of us who have at ability to see the patent hypocrisy in what most of your religious types are generally up to.
Remember, kids, you only have to do the parts of Jesus’s teachings that give you what you want!
-Joe
[/QUOTE]
Is that a two handed brush you’re painting with? Bet you have a lot of theist friends you make fun of, huh? They probably dig it. You tell them they’re stupid and gullible, and even though they may not be hypocrites, well some theist somewhere is, so it makes it all better. Must be the life of the party.
[QUOTE=Lightnin’]
Cops: Sure, the law may be on your side, but I was out there making all that noise with all of my friends. Oh, and the harassment you’ve gotten since you tried to press charges? Yeah, well, you should’ve just shut up. Next time you’ll know better.
[/QUOTE]
You drip perseverance. Yeah, I can’t think of a single period in American history where the courts have stepped in (with the aid of the National Guard if necessary) to see that unconstitutional practices were halted. Could never happen. The crooked cop always wins. Which leads to the question, if atheists are so smart and the cards are so stacked against them, why not superficially convert? If you can’t beat them join them and all that. 'Cause no government would ever attempt to protect the rights of the minority.
[QUOTE=Nutty Bunny]
If you have deep friendships with many religionists, as you say, I think they would be quite disappointed to read the disrespectful things you said about their religions. It makes YOU sound arrogant, which is one of the things Atheists are complaining about being accused of, isn’t it?
People will always notice the most extreme followers of any religion/non-religion. On the one hand, there are people like Jerry Falwell, who blame 9/11 on the gays and on the other hand, there are the Atheists who denigrate someone’s religion as “following the sky pixie”. I’m not equating the two, just giving examples. Jerry Falwell is on the faaaaar end of the scale than a disrespectful Atheist. But both do more harm than good for their respective sides.
Can’t you stand up for what you see as injustice without insulting people?
I don’t have a problem with the point you were making, I have a problem with the arrogant “I’m smarter than you crazy Christians” attitude.
[/QUOTE]
A) My friends not only laugh like hyenas when I go after stupid religious idiots, they’re right there making up their own jokes. My friends are smart enough to realize that sharing a nominal religious belief with a moron does not reflect on them any more than sharing a shoe size. It also doesn’t hurt that I know the bible better than probably 90% of the christians out there and use it regularly to refute and rebuke ignorant religionists.
B) If being able to accurately identify and label shit as shit makes me arrogant then I am more than proud to claim the label.
C) I’ve found that a good slap across the face, metaphorically speaking, is an excellent tool to snap otherwise sensible people out of a hysterical mindset and focus them on reality. I’d only be an asshole about insulting stupidity if I then cavilled at someone else insulting mine. Stupidity of every kind, be it religious, secular, or any other kind should be mercilessly mocked and insulted, because it’s the only way to let the stupid know that not everyone values and enables yahooism. In a country where reality tv makes obscene amounts of money, it’s necessary to draw the line and refuse to tolerate ignorance and the dissemination thereof.
D) I am smarter than crazy christians. Sorry if truth hurts, but there it is.
As has been pointed out upthread, I don’t have any rules that require me to be nice about anything. Stupidity irritates me, stupidity wielding power infuriates me and if I feel like it I’ll be just as abrasive as I like. If you don’t like my tactics, you are more than welcome not to use them–your choice. See, I’m a live & let live type…
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
Atheist or not, this is a problem for all people who are not comfortable with the idea of praying as a group. As a non-Christian religious person, I would at best be offended and at worst (as a theoretical parental unit) calling out the school to correct kids who did this because it is bullying behavior, regardless of the tone of voice.
[/QUOTE]
Won’t do any good. The vice-principal is the first one out the flagpole each morning. This what happened 4 years ago when the ACLU intervened: a letter was sent to the school board and the county attorney. The letter explained that several parents had expressed concern that children were being coerced into participating in prayer activity at the high school. Portions of the letter were read to the students over the loudspeaker one morning. The principal closed with “I want to make it very clear that students are not to be observed or overheard encouraging other students to participate in the silent prayer before school begins. I repeat: students caught encouraging participating in the Silent prayer must not be overheard. In this country, public prayer is merely a privilege, not a constitutional right, and we must be very careful not to have this privilege taken away.”
The next morning, the Christian students were seen loudly whispering encouragement to non-participating students. Teachers were seen winking, and making a big production of plugging their ears, whistling, or turning their back on the recruiters. The harassment of non-participating students and teachers got worse. Every teacher who had not been visible at the prayer meetings was suspect, as were several of the bolder non-participating students. Teachers who failed to show up at the meetings were ignored and treated with insolence. The overheard conversations were ramped up to include “Who do you think told on us? Who do you think reported us to the ACLU? Well, we all know which teachers don’t join hands with us…” and so on.
I just called Dad to ask him to read the announcement to me- and asked if the prayer circle was still meeting. He said yes, and that some local pastors and parents had been taking turns showing up to participate to show solidarity.
[QUOTE=whole bean]
Is that a two handed brush you’re painting with? Bet you have a lot of theist friends you make fun of, huh? They probably dig it. You tell them they’re stupid and gullible, and even though they may not be hypocrites, well some theist somewhere is, so it makes it all better. Must be the life of the party.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, most of my friends are non-theists. As in, really don’t give a shit about it either way. Somehow we managed to hook up at the weekly crucifix burning, or something.
I am, however, surrounded by theists (Southern Baptists, y’all) whose idea of being a good Christian is to do whatever the hell they want and it’s all good as long as they go to church for an hour on Sunday. They have dry counties, but golly, I’m sure that’s not Christian motivated. Isn’t that a theist impact on our secular government?
Hypocritical bullshit. Defend it or not. Don’t expect me to take your beliefs in Odin, Yahweh, Jehovah, God, or Allah as anything other than silly.
-Joe
[QUOTE=whole bean]
You drip perseverance. Yeah, I can’t think of a single period in American history where the courts have stepped in (with the aid of the National Guard if necessary) to see that unconstitutional practices were halted.
[/QUOTE]
You don’t get it, do you? That’s not the point of this thread.
Yes, the government eventually steps in and sets things right… but in the meantime, we’ve got the persecuted majority, such as the panel the OP started the damn thread with, telling us that we should just shut up and take it. “Don’t rock the boat, 'cause if you do, you deserve everything you’ve got coming to you because you’re trying to stop us from worshiping”.
Are you seriously unable to see how shows like that episode of Paula Zahn can piss us off? Tell you what- try this: imagine if she’d done a segment called “Why are Jews so Reviled”… and didn’t have a single Jew on her show to refute the “Well, if they’d just stop talking about being Jewish, we’d all get along just fine” conclusion.
[QUOTE=SmartAleq]
A) My friends not only laugh like hyenas when I go after stupid religious idiots, they’re right there making up their own jokes. My friends are smart enough to realize that sharing a nominal religious belief with a moron does not reflect on them any more than sharing a shoe size. It also doesn’t hurt that I know the bible better than probably 90% of the christians out there and use it regularly to refute and rebuke ignorant religionists.
B) If being able to accurately identify and label shit as shit makes me arrogant then I am more than proud to claim the label.
C) I’ve found that a good slap across the face, metaphorically speaking, is an excellent tool to snap otherwise sensible people out of a hysterical mindset and focus them on reality. I’d only be an asshole about insulting stupidity if I then cavilled at someone else insulting mine. Stupidity of every kind, be it religious, secular, or any other kind should be mercilessly mocked and insulted, because it’s the only way to let the stupid know that not everyone values and enables yahooism. In a country where reality tv makes obscene amounts of money, it’s necessary to draw the line and refuse to tolerate ignorance and the dissemination thereof.
D) I am smarter than crazy christians. Sorry if truth hurts, but there it is.
As has been pointed out upthread, I don’t have any rules that require me to be nice about anything. Stupidity irritates me, stupidity wielding power infuriates me and if I feel like it I’ll be just as abrasive as I like. If you don’t like my tactics, you are more than welcome not to use them–your choice. See, I’m a live & let live type…
[/QUOTE]
I think you might overestimate your intelligence. At least your posts concerning the establishment clause belie your claimed mental superiority. Then again perhaps you’re just not that well versed on the topic. Still so, an intelligent person would know to keep his or her mouth shut, were that the case.
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Actually, most of my friends are non-theists. As in, really don’t give a shit about it either way. Somehow we managed to hook up at the weekly crucifix burning, or something.
I am, however, surrounded by theists (Southern Baptists, y’all) whose idea of being a good Christian is to do whatever the hell they want and it’s all good as long as they go to church for an hour on Sunday. They have dry counties, but golly, I’m sure that’s not Christian motivated. Isn’t that a theist impact on our secular government?
Hypocritical bullshit. Defend it or not. Don’t expect me to take your beliefs in Odin, Yahweh, Jehovah, God, or Allah as anything other than silly.
-Joe
[/QUOTE]
I don’t expect you to even consider them. That’s not the point. But were you to mock me for something I believe and don’t expect you to believe, you wouldn’t count me among your friends.
[QUOTE=jakeline]
There are people who have known me for years and years and definitely don’t know that I’m agnostic. It’s just not important to my life. If they found out I was agnostic, I wouldn’t be ashamed. It’s just something that doesn’t affect my personal or professional relationships. I’ve had people try to witness to me and I usually just say that I appreciate their time, but I’m not interested. I’ve NEVER had anyone give me any shit nor treat me differently.
[/quote]
-Bolding mine-
And I think that this has a great deal to do with how an awful lot of atheists view relationships with others. I was speaking to a contemporary the other day and he made reference to my being Jewish. I asked him what had given him that idea and he said, “Because you always speak Jewish.” Now, I’ve certainly been known to engage in some Yiddish, particularly when I want to curse and don’t want to do so in a language that’s readily recognizable, but I also use Spanish, Italian and German imprecations. I laughed it off, pointed out to him that I was speaking Yiddish, not “Jewish” and we began moving on with our meeting. Someone else asked me what I was, then, and I just artfully moved the conversation along without getting into it. Anyone who has tried to witness to me, I will usually smile politely and decline whatever they’re selling. If they push the issue, I’m likely to get a mite touchy up to and including telling them precisely what I think of their particular brand of Christianity. I can count the number of times that has happened on one hand, though.
[QUOTE=Ghanima]
Some of us may think it’s stupid, illogical and ridiculous and go ahead and say so, but none of us want to amend the constitution to prohibit religion. Stating our opinion is not the same as working toward the abolition of religion.
[/QUOTE]
I fear you’re primarily preaching (heh) to the choir.