…indeed it isn’t, and its a national disgrace that you can’t and won’t embrace it.
And it is a shame. Such a simple thing to do as well.
…why would I need to quote you? Your posts (that demonstrate your attitude and how much you value indigenous culture) are only up thread, you only have to scroll. You can’t watch First Nations people express their culture on the world stage without being embarrassed. You hold no respect for treaties because they were signed “five generations ago.” So no, I’m not falling into your trap and I’m not conceding my point. You’ve been pretty clear on how much value you hold First Nation culture. You wouldn’t mind if it went away completely, in fact you think that it would have to go away if they want to get out of the cycle of poverty.
And spouting “colonialist mantra” is not “being neutral.” You might think you are being neutral, and you might pat yourself on the back thinking that to be true. But you’ve never ever had to be on the other side of the conversation. And due to the luck of the draw you never, ever will. I live on the other side, and I’ve listened to your sort of condescending nonsense for a very long time. As I said before while NZ have done a lot of things wrong, they have done many many more things right. We are a bi-cultural nation where we are not embarrassed to speak, sing, and be part of Maori culture. The various First Nation cultures clearly embarrasses you. You don’t want to figure out a way for them to break the cycle of poverty and preserve their culture. You are content to take the lazy way out (for you, not for them).
I suppose even moderators are capable of bullshit strawman arguments, so its no surprise you’ve pulled out the same “blame it on the politically correct” meme again.
But its bullshit. Utter twaddle and you are better than that. Everyone wants to break the cycle of poverty: and disagreeing with your proposed solutions is not an argument in favour of allowing people to die. You are getting more and more pathetic with every post.
Learn to read. Here’s what I wrote:
[QUOTE=RickJay]
To be honest, the stomach-turning sense I got then, and get all the time, as that we treat Aboriginals like pets, not human beings.
[/QUOTE]
This is very plain English. What embarrasses me is not First Nations people. It’s how the rest of Canada treats them, which is shamefully and inhumanly.
I hold no respect at all for a system that destroys human beings. I find it flatly astounding that anyone would think otherwise. Support for the existing system is support for suicide, crime, and misery.
That isn’t what I said, no. Again, these things were plainly stated, but I’ll make a good faith effort to explain, again.
The job of a government is to see to the welfare of its citizens. Canada has created a system in which a large number of its citizens are trapped in economic desperation, and has done so, in part, because changing anything is invariably going to result in charges of racism and cultural genocide (even if the thing being changed really doesn’t have anything to do with culture.)
My position is that the primary job of the government, and its most pressing issue right now, should be ameliorating the plight of our First Nations people. That should not, should NEVER, take a back seat to some armchair sociologist’s opinion of what cultures should or should not exist. A human being needs food, shelter, education and a fair chance at life no matter what their culture. Canada is a multicultural nation of remarkable success, and has accomplished that while still being able to keep its citizens cared for, EXCEPT in the case of the First Nations (some of them, anyway; they aren’t all the same) because of an ingrained system of treating them not as individuals with rights, but as an ethnic group. Treaties are legal documents and must be respected, but they are also used as a straight up excuse to do nothing else and simply let people rot. That is the reality in Canada.
I’m not sure what “colonialist mantra” is.
What a fucking stupid thing to say, the last refuge of a complete shithead. You’ve never been on ANY side of the Canadian conversation. Which side of the conversation were you on with regards to Stalin starving the Ukrainians to death? Does that mean you can’t pass judgment on those actions?
I’m a Canadian; I have the right to enter my opinion on a matter of pressing national importance where thousands of my fellow citizens are suffering.
You’re evidently too lazy to read things very closely, a you’re projecting onto me a remarkable number of opinions I have not expressed and don’t hold.
I haven’t proposed any solutions, have I? Go ahead, try to find one.
What I have said is the current system does not work. Supporting its continuation is supporting misery and death, and no, not everyone here wants to break the cycle of poverty. Many people in Canada do a fine business perpetuating the cycle, and many don’t give a shit.
Forget “Blame Canada!” It should be “BLAME RICKJAY!”
Or perhaps, Banquet Bear, if you calmed down, tried to set aside your prejudice and hatred for a moment, and actually read the words RickJay posted, you might recognize that what he wrote is not what you think he wrote. Not even close.
…no need to learn, I can read thank you very much.
I read what you said. I can also read between the lines.
So tell me know: were you proud to watch the First Nations people showcase their culture on the world stage?
Who said we need to support what you are currently doing? It most certainly isn’t me. The status quo is part of the problem, but is better than the sort of solution that Tony Abbott is proposing. Forcing them to abandon their culture to become more like you, IMHO is not the right nor the only way to go.
We were originally talking about Australia you know. And you were applying your values and your knowledge to a situation that you admit you have no real knowledge of.
But we all know what the role of government is. And it is perfectly possible to balance respect of a culture with looking after its citizens. And if the only thing stopping you making changes for the better is that you are too shit scared of being called a racist, then grow some freaking balls. As you keep saying: “People are dying.” Don’t let someone calling you a name stop you from doing the right thing.
I don’t think anyone should listen to “armchair sociologists.” But if you don’t think that people should listen to armchair sociologists, then stop acting like one. Thanks for the lecture that “A human being needs food, shelter, education and a fair chance at life.” You can do that, and respect and embrace their culture at the very same time.
Go read your posts.
I’m tangata whenua, and I have more in common with the First Nations people than you will ever have.
Then go do something about it then. Stop whining about it on a message board. If this issue is of so much national importance and the suffering of your fellow citizens is so important to you, what have you done about it? I don’t think the issue is that important to you at all.
I’ve read your words: I’m pretty clear on what your opinions are.
It was a rhetorical “your solution.” Its pretty obvious you don’t have any clue how to solve the problems the First Nations people are suffering from.
Supporting, embracing and wanting to become part of the various First Nations cultures is not supporting the current system, and it is not supporting misery and death. It is perfectly possible to both embrace and be part of the culture, and to break the cycle of poverty and misery. Wanting to do both is important: because the Indigenous people are already marginalised and treated differently by your society. They already know you don’t care about their culture and that you don’t care if it ceases to exist. And its attitudes and people like you that are part of the problem. And the problem is that you can’t see the problem with what you have said in this thread.
…I suggest you read my posts a bit more closely, so you can understand what I am saying first. I show no prejudice in my words and I express no hatred.
A number of you guys are trying to tone police the conversation, ignoring we are in the freaking pit. I’ve got a right to express my views the way I want too here. I don’t think embracing indigenous culture and supporting people not dying should be mutually exclusive goals, and doing both is not impossible.
And Tony Abbott is a moron.
BULLSHIT, complete and utter crap.
The issues you raise in regards to pedophilia, spousal abuse, marital rape and gang warfare have festered in all Australian population for years, particularly in the poorer “classes”.
Your crap about Nazis is dumb, like really dumb. Nazism is not a culture you dumbass it’s an ideology.
I can respect the Germans for their culture and still hate fascism and the nazis. I can respect Western culture even though not many years ago we had slaves, burned witches, had an inquisition, stuck people on crosses etc etc, culture is not a simple one dimensional thing and as you have shown I don’t think you understand or maybe you are as dumb as your posts.
[QUOTE=Banquet Bear]
I can also read between the lines.
[/quote]
Reading between the lines is a dangerous game because it’s another way of saying that you are making unsupported assumptions. Making unsupported assumptions is often the fast lane to looking like a dickhead.
Oh yes, you absolutely are doing exactly that. You have leapt to a conclusion about **RickJay’s **meaning and views by “reading between the lines”. How do you know what would be between the lines? By prejudice.
When a number of long term posters all of whom are broadly in agreement with you regarding the fundamentals of this subject are telling you that you are carrying on like a dickhead, you may wish to consider whether you are carrying on like a dickhead.
This is always a bemusing sentiment. The Pit is highly permissive both of your robust remarks and others’ responses. Do you think it only goes one way?
Eh, I thought RickJay sounded pretty Tory, too.
Part of the problem is a learned difference in what is thought of as a desirable and honorable lifestyle. Traditional lifestyles were adapted to a given population level, and constrained by available resources. “Moderns” like RickJay want people to conform to their understood “correct way of living,” not that’s really universal, particularly sustainable, or even particularly humane to the poor.
If living in a new place, uprooted, is worse than living as they do now, cutting off funds isn’t really a great (or humane) answer, is it?
…if you think I’m a dickhead, just call me a dickhead.
What RickJay said was:
“During the 2010 Winter Olympics, chiefs of B.C. First Nations were invited as honored guests to the ceremonies, and Aboriginal culture featured into much of the pomp and circumstance. Once the games were done, well, back to the reserve. To be honest, the stomach-turning sense I got then, and get all the time, as that we treat Aboriginals like pets, not human beings. I don’t think there is any malice in it, for the most part (there is a lot of individual malice, especially from cops) but that it is, rather, misguided, a feeling that the incredible human cost of Aboriginal poverty and hopelessness can be fixed if we just keep forking over money to let them live in Attawapiskat. Unsurprisingly, it continues to not work.”
The First Nations accepted the invitation to be honoured guests at the ceremony, and I’m sure they took pride at being able to showcase who they were on the world stage.
I’m proud when I watch the haka performed. RickJay wrote a lot of words but I see no hint of pride in any of them. I even get the hint that he was a little bit embarrassed by it all. Yeah, I’m reading between the lines. But I don’t think based on what he wrote that my assumptions are unreasonable.
Do you know how many indigenous voices there are on this message board? I’m NZ Maori as well as NZ Samoan. My real granddad was a member of the Mau who died in the fight for independence against NZ occupation. I know that Guanolad is Maori, and I can’t right now think of anybody else.
I’m a voice from the other side. When you casually talk about giving up your culture that my culture you are talking about. And when “neutral” people declare that sacrificing your culture is an acceptable sacrifice for improving their lot in life, I don’t think that there is anything wrong with disagreeing with them. I’ve got a right to disagree with them. Heck, its almost a duty to make my voice heard.
In US culture there is no more important value than freedom. In Maori culture, there is no more important value than whanau, or family. A typical US person would say “what good is family if you don’t have freedom?” A typical Maori person would say “what good is freedom if you don’t have family?”
When you suggest sacrificing culture for the greater good: imagine starting a debate in Great Debates suggesting that the first amendment should be scrapped because thousands of Americans are suffering.
Now go back and read RickJay’s posts in that context. He doesn’t want the culture to die, but if that is what has to happen then so be it. I don’t think that is acceptable at all. And I think that this attitude is entirely part of the problem. Comparing the plight of indigenous New Zealanders, Australians and Canadians, NZ Maori clearly have the best standard of living, and I believe we have achieved this because we have done precisely the opposite of what RickJay suggests. We embrace our culture. We take pride in our Maori language. Everybody knows the words to Pokarekare ana. (Although no-one knows the second verse) We all sing both the English language version and the Maori language version of our national anthem. We all tune in to watch the haka before the test match against Japan, then we go back to what we were doing. Maori culture is everywhere. There are still disparities between Maori and non-Maori health/crime stats, etc here, and Maori have bad numbers. But it would be unthinkable to suggest giving up Maori culture to “save lives.” There are easier and better ways to make things better.
So while I’m aware that there is “broad” agreement that things need to improve, I cannot agree that culture is an acceptable sacrifice in order to make those improvements. It doesn’t need to happen. We shouldn’t even be having this discussion. As a society you should be embracing the culture, not driving it underground. I think the “moderate tone” of the “neutral” perspective that has offered in this thread is much more dangerous and subversive than anything the extremists put forward. Because people ignore the extremists.
I’ve been on these boards since 2002. This is first time I’ve had a serious discussion about who I am, my identity, and what that means to me. There are so few indigenous voices on these boards I am going to have my say. And if that means you think I’m a dickhead: well you are entitled to think whatever the hell you like.
Why would you think that I wouldn’t?
Well said banquet bear, I have lost my indigenous culture (not as old as some but still at least 10 generations) because the Russians took over my ancestral homes in East Karelia. I hang onto what parts of my culture I still know and can’t help have a fond nostalgia for what was and that I will never truly know what is was like. So mate go for it hold onto your culture and let it mature as all do.
Some people seem to think culture stands still!
I am now a true blue Aussie and embrace the culture that is Australia, made up of bits from all over the world.
This.
Maori culture is not Aboriginal culture. We are literally talking about a hunter-gatherer society. It would be like embracing not Maori culture, not Polynesian culture, not Lapitan culture, not even Dapenkeng culture, but the culture of Paleolithic Taiwan, six thousand years ago.
Where did RickJay say this, or has **Banquet Bear **just repeated this strawman often enough that it is now taken as read that this is what **RickJay **thinks even though he’s never said any such thing?
…I’m going to read between the lines here and state quite confidentially that nothing I say will ever convince you to change the way you think. So feel free to ignore what I have to say, and keep on treating the Aboriginal culture the way you always have. Because its worked so well so far, hasn’t it?
What do you suggest exactly, Banquet Bear? Feel free to be specific. No emotive rambling. Set it out in dot points. Say exactly what should happen. “Embrace Aboriginal culture” is too vague. Say exactly what should happen.
Because my experience is that there are a lot of people who think they have the answers but few have thought it all through.
What the fuck difference does that make?
…I’m not your monkey dude. And this isn’t Great Debates. I don’t have all the answers and have never claimed I have.
“I refuse to read between the lines because that isn’t how reading works.” - Francis Brian Shaw
When you choose to read “between the lines,” rather than reading what people are actually writing, you usually end up just assuming your own prejudices.
Pride? Sure, I was proud, in a nationalist sense, of all the Olympic ceremonies in 2010, with the exception of the ridiculous neckbeard slam poet who ripped off a beer commercial. Then right afterwards Canada went back to ignoring First Nations problems.
Inviting aboriginal performers to be part of the show when the world’s looking at us and then letting aboriginal women go missing by the hundreds every year and aboriginal kids hang themselves once the world ISN’T looking at us is not “embracing” their culture, it’s a façade. A lie. It’s a big cover-up. Are we supposed to be proud of that?
See, this is where your habit of reading between the lines but not reading the lines themselves isn’t doing you much good. I’ve never said culture should be sacrificed to improve one’s lot in life. What I said, quite clearly, was that the preservation of a culture should not be done when it harms the welfare of human beings. In some cases it might well be true that the government actively helping a culture survive HELPS people, and if so, great. But never in place of.
[QUOTE=Banquet Bear]
Then go do something about it then. Stop whining about it on a message board.
[/QUOTE]
And what is it you’re doing, exactly? Whining about my posts on a message board. Pot, meet kettle. You’d at least do a better job of it if you were better at reading.
As to who I am or what I do when I’m not posting on here, how do you know what that would be?
…you see? You don’t get it.
And I doubt you ever will.
The performance of the First Nations was a not a façade. Not a lie. Not a cover up. That’s just you reading between the lines and seeing something that is not there: you’ve ended up just assuming your own prejudices. I can watch the haka performed with pride in the full knowledge that families like the fictional one in “Once Were Warriors” actually exist in reality. One does not negate the other.
Are hundreds of aboriginal women going missing every year? Did they go missing because of a cultural performance on the world stage? No they did not.
They went missing for a whole host of individual reasons and not because some people got up on stage and danced. Perhaps you should watch that documentary “Footloose.” Ren and Ariel demonstrate quite clearly that dancing is not the cause of all of the worlds problems.
And I’m not exactly sure what you want to happen. How exactly do you want opening ceremonies to occur? Do you want the Prime Minister to get up and make a speech on how badly the economy is doing, how global warming is destroying the earth and next year taxes are going up? The First Nations Tribe to stand up and read out a list of names of teenagers who hung themselves last year? What a downer dude.
Here is the wikipedia article on First Nations Culture:
What part of first nations culture is causing the harm? Is it the music?
That doesn't seem to be particularly harmful to me.Is it the artwork?
Seems prettty harmless.
Is it the language?
Oh, you guys used to try to ban the language? They did that for a while here as well.How well did that language ban work out for you guys?
And you should take your own advice. I never stated that you personally “declare that sacrificing your culture is an acceptable sacrifice for improving their lot in life”, I was talking about “neutral” people in general.
When you say to an indigenous person like me that “the preservation of a culture should not be done when it harms the welfare of human beings” we literally don’t know what you are talking about. My culture is my whakapapa, my hapu, my whanau. My music, my identity, my family. How is that harmful? Why do you want to take it away?
This is the point you are just not getting. We know that things are crap. But we don’t know how stopping us from singing our songs will fix anything.
How about they do both at the same time? Preserving language, history, art and music is not exactly an onerous task. And its something that everybody in Canada can actively take part in. You can learn the language. You can share the songs. You can listen to the music. You can watch them showcase their culture on the world stage and not feel like your fellow Canadians think they are their pets.
But people are dying dude. Your fellow people are dying. You appealed to emotion but aren’t willing to do anything about it. So just quit with the appeals to emotion.
Well I don’t actually really care.