I have no idea what thread Banquet Bear is reading, but it sounds fascinating.
…I’m at a loss to understand what you don’t get. Indigenous people around the world are fighting to keep their culture and heritage. This is a very important issue for us. What part of that don’t you understand?
[QUOTE=Banquet Bear]
They went missing for a whole host of individual reasons and not because some people got up on stage and danced.
[/QUOTE]
At this point we are well beyond even pretending you are replying to actual statements written by any other person who’s posted in this thread.
Honestly, I’m starting to wonder if you are, in fact, a human being, and not some sort of Turing test program designed to grab portions of an Internet post and churn out outraged replies. The part where you asked “what part of First nations culture is causing the harm” was especially amusing, inasmuch as we’re 100 posts in and nobody has said anyone’s culture is causing anyone harm.
Since only a total nut case would propose to speak not only for one ethnic group but basically ALL of them, I’m now pretty much convinced you’re a computer program. Kudos to the programmer for plugging in actual Maori words, that was a good touch.
…you said:
“the preservation of a culture should not be done when it harms the welfare of human beings.”
What part of First Nations culture is causing harm?
None of it you say? Preserving First Nations culture doesn’t cause any harm?
Then what exactly are you trying to say here then?
I’ll ignore you ad hominem attack and simply accept your concession. You’ve ended up agreeing with me: Preserving First Nations culture doesn’t harm the welfare of human beings.
Unrelated to Aboriginal affairs but on topic regarding our moronic government, do any of our American friends care to watch this interview with the Minister for Education and give their reaction? Chris the 'fixer' Pyne - YouTube
Reading Comprehension 101:
RickJay has expressed concern that our government(s) have portrayed on the world stage that all is well concerning the lives of our aboriginal populations, but when the lights go out at the end of the international show, not nearly enough is being done to improve a terrible situation.
This is in no way negative toward aboriginal people, their cultures, or their dances and songs. It is a very strong criticism of our government(s)’ relationships with and treatment of aboriginal people.
Quite simply, in your rage you have got it entirely backwards.
…Comprehension 101:
I’m well aware that this is what he thinks.
I think thats bollocks. We perform the Haka before every game of rugby: when the lights go out that still doesn’t mean that enough is being done to improve the well being of Maori in the far north. It isn’t the freaking government that is expressing their love and their pride in their culture on stage: its the people of the First Nations. It was an eight minute display in a ceremony directed by David Atkins. You must have a real low opinion of people if you think that we would watch that and then think “oh, everything’s okay!”
Work to fix what is broken. That doesn’t mean you can’t celebrate what is good. If you don’t feel that enough is being done to help the First Nations there is plenty you can do about it to fix that doesn’t involve feeling guilty that they are performing on the world stage.
And your reading my posts wrong.
This is what is at the heart of what RickJay is saying:
“The preservation of a culture should not be done when it harms the welfare of human beings.”
My point from the start is that the preservation of indigenous cultures does not cause harm to the welfare of human beings. And it appears now that RickJay agrees with me. You think the problem is the government relationship and treatment of aboriginal people? I agree. But at the heart of it that isn’t what RickJay was saying.
We’ll just have to disagree on your reading comprehension abilities.
…do you genuinely believe that the performances of the First Nations at the Winter Olympics was an example of your government(s) having portrayed on the world stage that all is well concerning the lives of your aboriginal populations?
Do you not think that "“The preservation of a culture should not be done when it harms the welfare of human beings” is at the heart of what RickJay has been saying?
I think it’s a simplified summary of what he’s been saying… sufficiently simplified that any argument which begins with “well, he is saying THAT, and therefore me must believe X, or be saying X, or be endorsing X” is likely to be an spurious one.
I think he’s made his point fairly well. He’s claiming (and unless he’s just making shit up I assume it’s true, although I don’t honestly know much about aboriginal/indigenous conditions in either Canada or Australia) that the result of current government policies, however well-meaning or well-intentioned or ethical-in-theory those policies might be, has been disastrously failed communities with disproportionate rates of all sorts of social ills including various crimes, alcoholism, abuse, etc.
Do you disagree with that as a factual claim? (Note that it’s not an absolute claim… he’s not making a claim about ALL indigenous communities and cultures worldwide, or even all such communities in Canada or Australia.)
…you’ll note that my first point of disagreement with RickJay was his claim that “there is truth at the heart of what Tony Abbott said.” I was just taking the conversation back to where it started.
…I agree with what you have said. I disagree that this is what RickJay has said.
[QUOTE=RickJay]
But I think there must come a time, in a liberal democracy, when someone has to point out that the responsibility of the government is to the welfare of human beings, not to the continuation of a particular set of spiritual beliefs, dances, songs and manners of dress. The history of our species is dotted with ten thousand lost cultures; there are more vanished cultures and languages and dances and songs and religions than there are extant ones, and the loss of each was a tiny shame. But, really, the human beings who live TODAY are not individually worse off for the fact that nobody speaks Occitan, identifies as an Etruscan, or whatever.
[/QUOTE]
Those words are not about failed policies. They are RickJay’s opinion on the best way to move forward. I wouldn’t see the loss of First Nation culture as a “tiny shame.” I think it is the responsibility of the government to both look after the well being of all people but to do everything they can to preserve indigenous culture. One doesn’t have to come at the expense of the other.
You can’t strip someone of their cultural identity TODAY and then say that they are not individually worse off. There is no reason TODAY why we both can’t work to improve the welfare of human beings and work towards preserving their culture. There is no reason why today, in a liberal democracy, governments can’t do two things at once.
And Tony Abbott is still a moron.
I’m guessing he’s not your monkey either, dude. We’ve all just go do the “work” which is, uhhh, something. It’s not his job to say what “work” because, well, he’s not your monkey. The government should just do, uhhh, everything. You know, those things that need to be done. Whatever they are.
Are we clear here?
As far as I can make out, to you “preservation of indigenous cultures” means language and dance and so on. But in addition, the very heart of the culture of the Australian indigenes in question is living on their land. Land that is massively inhospitable and isolated. Consequently, there is very substantial tension between meaningful preservation of the heart of the culture of the people in question and their welfare.
The whole situation is extremely difficult; as you tacitly admit by your instant retreat the moment I put you to the test of actually saying what you think should be done.
…don’t flatter yourself mate. You didn’t put me to a “test.” There isn’t a simple answer and you know that as well as I do. But this:
“But I think there must come a time, in a liberal democracy, when someone has to point out that the responsibility of the government is to the welfare of human beings, not to the continuation of a particular set of spiritual beliefs, dances, songs and manners of dress. The history of our species is dotted with ten thousand lost cultures; there are more vanished cultures and languages and dances and songs and religions than there are extant ones, and the loss of each was a tiny shame. But, really, the human beings who live TODAY are not individually worse off for the fact that nobody speaks Occitan, identifies as an Etruscan, or whatever.”
Is absolutely not the solution.