Auto insurance liability claims - from the inside

As posted a few times, I work in auto liability claims, for a company most (all?) of you - in the US at least - have heard of. I often see misconceptions regarding legal liability, what the insurance company (we’ll call them Insurco) can and can’t do with regards to a claim, and general misunderstanding/ignorance.

First of all I strongly suggest all insureds read their policy. What’s especially important - and what often trips people up because they don’t read their policy, ever - is the Exclusions per each coverage, especially the liability coverages. We are all bound by state insurance department guidelines/mandates and regardless of what you may hear from others, we are not out to screw our insureds. It’s poor customer service (we can’t collect premium from someone who leaves us for another company), it’s bad faith (huge issue), and things people often accuse insurance companies of doing is entirely contradictory to state law and doesn’t sit well with the insurance commissioner.

Some real world examples from my previous claims as an adjuster to contemplate. I will simply post the situation and see what you guys think.

  1. Insured lives in Manhattan, and loans his pickup (why have a pickup in Manhattan is outside the scope here…) to his buddy to pick up furniture from somewhere in Queens. Time passes, the insured is getting a bit antsy, and then is contacted by police in northern New Jersey to please come to impound to pick up his truck. Turns out that his buddy, instead of going to Queens, took a detour to somewhere in Jersey to, err, get laid. In the truck. When the cops found him and the truck, he was bleeding from his … err … member, and the ladyfriend had a bloody mouth (his blood, not hers). At climax, with the lady across his lap, he crossed the centerline and, after bouncing off multiple vehicles (thankfully no injuries except to the driver of our truck, but 4 vehicles worth of property damage) plowed into the Jersey barrier on the other side, at speed.

Does Insurco pay the property damage claims? How about the PIP (personal injury protection) claim for the buddy and his member? Assuming the insured has physical damages coverages for his truck (“full coverage”), will Insurco pay that claim - and under what coverage? Comprehensive (stolen vehicle, for example) or Collision?

Let’s assume that the insured is pressing charges against buddy for stealing the truck. Or not, from a policy perspective. Do you expect your friends, when you loan your car to them, to instead go do whatever they want with it, and if so would you not have a problem with that?

  1. Medical Payments is a coverage in some states that is a first party coverage (for reasonable and necessary treatment/services resulting from injury) available to occupants of a vehicle for injuries sustained in an accident, regardless of fault. Some states require the coverage, others don’t, and others make it an optional coverage that, when existing on a policy, becomes mandatory to use if there are injuries. This particular New Hampshire claim involved the insured’s vehicle parked, unoccupied, in a McDonalds parking lot. The family members were inside enjoying their Shamrock Shakes or whatever. It’s January and the lot is icy. This particular insured carries MedPay on their policy. Some completely random teenagers decide to play sneaker hockey in the parking lot, because it’s nice and icy and slidy. They get a bit rambunctious, and one kid slips, falls, and in the process smashes his hand through the insured’s rear window, smashing the window and nearly severing his hand. The kid is no relation to the insured or his family, doesn’t even know the family, and in fact the insured was from a different part of the state, simply visiting that town that day.

Injured kid gets an attorney and files a MedPay claim against our insured. Do we pay it?

  1. I see this one far too often, and it trips up a LOT of people. Insured’s son Pete gets a job as a pizza delivery driver. Pizza place requires all drivers to be insured, and of course pizza place doesn’t provide their drivers with specialized Pizza Delivery Vehicles or separate riders on the pizza place’s own commercial liability policy. In other words, you deliver pizza in your own vehicle which you have to show proof of insurance to the pizza place as a condition of employment. So the insured lets Pizza Pete use one of the family vehicles, on the Insurco policy, to deliver pizza. Pete does this daily to pay for his college tuition. One day Pete gets a bit too distracted by the thoughts of the easy pizza money, and causes a multiple vehicle pileup, injuring several claimants too. He has a carful of pizzas and was en route to a delivery at the time.

Do we pay this claim? One caveat here is that this is more a state-by-state thing.

What if Pete had finished his delivery, and was en route back to work to pick up the next load?

  1. Insured is suicidal, decides to drive at recklessly excessive speed on the highway, and drives head-on into the center Jersey barrier intent on the end. He makes this last-second maneuver from the rightmost lane of three, in effect suddenly making a left turn at 90+ MPH from the right lane across two lanes of traffic into the barrier. A small handful of claimants either hit our insured, or are struck by our insured, in the process.

Do we pay the claimants’ property damage claims? The claim by the estate for his vehicle? How about death benefits under his first party medical coverages?

  1. This was my favorite claim because of its absurdity, and thankfully nobody got injured. It’s February in New Jersey, on the NJ Turnpike. 60-70 MPH traffic. Insured is behind a mid-90s sedan with a surfboard strapped to the roof, and insured is driving a medium size SUV. They are in the middle lane of three, with traffic on either side. (I bet you can see where this is going…) Nobody is particularly tailgating or doing anything improper, all are just out for a nice February drive on the turnpike. Suddenly the surfboard takes flight, aiming itself like a missile directly at the insured’s windshield, at highway speed. The insured has visions of sudden impalement and reflexively dives the SUV to the right, out of the way of the surfboard, and in the process smashes into the innocent vehicle in the right lane, pushing both of them into the guardrail on the right shoulder. The surfboard lands harmlessly in the roadway, and amazingly enough the surfers also pull over (oblivious, at first, to the wreckage in their wake; they simply noticed that the surfboard was oddly no longer on their roof and wanted to retrieve it).

The innocent party in the right lane, struck by our insured, corroborates this story 100%. The surfers are cited by the NJ State Police for failure to properly secure property to their vehicle, and our insured is not considered at fault by the police or Insurco. All parties are identified on the police report.

Right-lane innocent party insurance company, however, asserts a claim against Insurco for causing an accident due to the negligent and unsafe evasive action of our insured. They claim as per NJ Joint & Several, we are 100% liable for their damages because, in their eyes, we are 75% liable for their damages for failure to control our vehicle and striking their innocent insured. I deny their claim, after actually laughing on the phone with their adjuster at the absurdity, and am taken to arbitration as a result.

In the meantime, Surfers Insurance Co. is not willing to accept any more than 50% liability for the loss, taking the position that we should have expected that strange things might come off the vehicle in front of us and we should be at a far enough distance back from the vehicle in front of us to react appropriately to whatever may come our way. We were attempting to collect 100% of our damages from Surfers Insurance for their driver’s negligence as cited on the police report.

What do you think the decision was in arbitration?

  1. This was my most recent odd one. Insured loaned her vehicle to her brother, non-resident, because her brother’s car was in the shop and out of service. Brother is insured by another carrier, not Insurco. Brother goes to a party with his exchange student girlfriend (true story), someone Roofies the girlfriend (so they say), and then on the way home from the party the girlfriend allegedly grabs the wheel of the car and turns them into a telephone pole. Nobody got hurt. On the recorded statements both parties state that the girlfriend was so out of it she had no recollection of the events or loss, and that she only knew what allegedly happened when the driver told her about it the next morning. We suspect that the driver was DUI and made the story up to get out of a DUI, but we have no proof of this.

As Insurco, insurer of the vehicle and not the driver, do we attempt to recover damages from anyone (our vehicle was a total loss, and we paid nearly $22K to total it out)? If so, who?

Would you mind posting the answers to these, and the reasoning? Alas, no one’s weighed in, and I don’t know enough to speculate.

Please tell me they didn’t pay out in #1, #2 and #5! Also, in #1, wouldn’t the claim go against the friend’s insurance if he was the one driving?

I’ve always heard that the insurance goes with the vehicle, not the driver, so #1, 3, and 6 would be paid. Is that right?

What about someone driving on a suspended license- I would think that they aren’t covered if they cause damages. Is that right?

I’ll take shots at three of them:

For 3, I’d expect the insured would have had to say whether they are using the car for business or personal use. Talking with my wife, she thinks that for our insurance, only the principle use is specified. If that’s the case, delivering pizzas is probably not the principle use, so Insurco pays out.

For 2, I wouldn’t think you’d pay out. The fault would lie with the injured kid. Perhaps you’d try to recover damages from them for your costs. (It wouldn’t be worth it here, but in principle, if they had deep pockets and your loss was much larger…)

For 5, “In the meantime, Surfers Insurance Co. is not willing to accept any more than 50% liability for the loss, taking the position that we should have expected that strange things might come off the vehicle in front of us and we should be at a far enough distance back from the vehicle in front of us to react appropriately to whatever may come our way.” Nope. Not buying that argument. Since they were cited for “failure to properly secure property to their vehicle”, Surfers Insurance pays up. ETA: and I agree with your denial for Innocent Party insurance. Failure to react on your clients part could have easily led to a death.
From 1:

There’s a pretty big gap between stopping at a store to pick up some other stuff, and picking up a (presumably) hooker. There’s a line somewhere between those.

I’ll take a shot

  1. Claim paid under collision. Insured can’t claim theft, as he gave the keys to the driver. Personal injury? Med pay in California would pay (more on that below), other than that I think it would go to the jury.

  2. Med pay definition in California is different from what you posted. Here the wording is along the line of “Medical bills arising out of the use of or alighting into or from a motor vehicle.” (working from memory, the wording might be a tad off) Under that definition it could be said that the kid was trying to get into the vehicle. Also as Med pay is designed to prevent lawsuits, I would guess that a smart adjuster would settle quickly before the kid got a lawyer.

3.How long has the policy been in force? This could be considered a material misrepresentation on the application which could be reason to refund premiums and deny coverage if the policy is less than 30 days (60?, I don’t recall) old.
Other than that, I’m not sure, but I think they would pay.

  1. No suicide clause in an auto policy. Company pays.

  2. Surfer pays.

  3. You pay and can pursue against the driver. Counter question You decide to go against the brother, sister (your insured) does not want you to as it will create stress in the family. She tells you to stop going after her brother. Do you stop?

And sued for what - the driver not removing the windows to their car before going into the restaurant? :confused:

(Not that this is out of the realm of possibility - after all, the company in scenario #5 thought that the driver should have just let the surfboard hit them..)

Object of all claims adjusters, get out of the claim for the least amount of $ possible.
While you might get it thrown out of court, it is going to cost a dump truck full of money in lawyers to get it thrown out. Med pay might be $5,000.
Which is cheaper?

I understand that the med pay would be cheaper, but I don’t get the basis for the lawsuit - would they claim that the owner of the car was negligent? If so, how? I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t even know the right question to ask here - I’m trying to understand what this case would even look like if it went to trial.

You have got to be kidding me. Falling against a parked car that isn’t yours is “alighting into… a vehicle”? No way.

And I don’t know what the practice is in the US, but here any claim as dodgy as this the insurer would turn down on principle. They don’t want to get a reputation as pushovers who just pay anything no matter how ludicrous. Now if the kid did get a lawyer and make a claim and come up with some even vaguely plausible argument, you might consider a commercial settlement but not before then. I’d be interested to hear from the OP as to what their practice is in such cases.

Some answers, though I hope this doesn’t end the discussion!

We paid all the associated claims. Problem was that the insured didn’t follow through on pressing theft charges, so it fell back on “protect the insured”. There may have been a defense on operating outside the scope of permission - as the policy contract does indeed specify permissive use has to fall within the scope of permission - but in this case, it was clearly a case to settle. We paid the property damage claims, the Collision damage claim for the insured’s truck, and the driver had a PIP claim for the “gee, how did I get bite marks down THERE?!?” injuries.

If I recall (this was several years ago) we did attempt to subrogate the PD and collision claims from the driver’s carrier but I don’t remember what happened on the recovery side.

We paid this too. Our New Hampshire policy defines Med Pay as applicable to injuries sustained while in, on, occupying or alighting from the insured vehicle. If you sustain injury while qualifying under a single one of those classes, you are - for that moment - an insured under the policy and entitled to the coverage. It does not matter if you are on the policy or not (hence the reason passengers are entitled to MedPay in legit auto accident claims). I hated this decision, but our legal beagles did the right thing and afforded coverage. It PISSED OFF the insureds and we had to ensure our re-underwriting folks considered the unique nature of this claim when re-underwriting the policy down the road.

Interestingly the attorney for the kid tried to get McDonalds to pay the bills but McDonalds denied liability. I have no idea if the attorney filed suit down the road because the attorney rightfully surmised our policy had nothing to do with any liability claims, and once we exhausted our $1000 in MedPay coverages the kid was done as far as we were concerned.

In New England, we typically disclaim here. Our policies are, slowly, being rewritten as allowed by state law to specifically exclude food delivery as a covered loss (the words “food delivery” are becoming written into the policies; though even the non-rewritten ones exclude “goods or persons for hire” without spelling it out). We (Insurco) are not a commercial auto carrier; we don’t rate for Pizza Pete driving his '95 Nissan into the hood on a nightly basis to deliver pizzas and risk becoming a casualty. From a risk perspective, pizza (or any food/goods delivery) entails additional risk just because the delivery dude is a rich target for robbery etc. Then we’re talking comprehensive claims, and possibly MedPay or Uninsured/Underinsured Motorist BI claims, which start to get nasty. So we - along with nearly every other family auto insurer - simply don’t cover these losses and the exclusion is written into the policy.

If Pizza Pete had come to us to buy a policy, and when asked what the daily use of the vehicle would be stated he was a food delivery guy (or newspapers, or anything commercial with a fair amount of miles/day) he probably would not have been sold a policy in the first place and been directed to a commercial insurance partner of ours.

In New Jersey, the Dept of Insurance has mandated that we don’t flat-out disclaim coverage for a claim while the insured is doing food/goods delivery, we simply drop the coverages to the NJ state minimum liability limits (BI 15,000 per person / 30,000 per occurrence, and Property Damage 5000) and roll from there.

If the person is returning to base to get more food to deliver, it’s still business/delivery use and would still be disclaimed (or rolled down, if NJ).

We take the position that the property damage claims are not intentional (the insured’s actions were only intentional to himself, not the other property) so we pay them. Usually we pay the collision claim for the insured’s vehicle too (ask me about the vehicle interior pictures from the self-inflicted shotgun to the head, while sitting in the driver seat, sometime…). Death benefits too. As posted upthread, suicide is not an exclusion.

This was a two-part arbitration. We were filed against by the innocent party, because they didn’t accept our denial. At the same time, we filed against Surfers because we weren’t accepting their 50% offer. So I had to write up the arbitration both defending our insured against innocent party, and as the applicant (plaintiff) against Surfers. I also helped innocent party in the applicant filing against Surfers because I impleaded them into the previously-separate arbitration we were filing against Surfers.

We won on both counts. Both us and innocent were awarded 100% of our damages from Surfers - and as an arbitration award, it was binding for Surfers.

This is still ongoing. We have sent our demand for recovery of our insured’s damages from the driver’s own carrier. Still pending how it will play out. Our position is that despite what a passenger may or may not do, the driver still has the ultimate responsibility to maintain control of the vehicle and his passengers.

Good times!

Thanks for the answer but you didn’t my bonus question about #6.

Cynical and fundamentally incorrect. The object of all (competent/ethical) claims adjusters: uphold the letter and spirit of the policy with respect to first party claims (comprehensive, collision, med pay, towing, etc.) and protect the insured when 3rd party claims (property damage & bodilyinjury liability) claims are presented. “Protecting the insured” usually coincides with “Make a reasonable payment for the claim.” I don’t take advantage of someone’s ignorance of the system, I pay what a jury would be likely to award. As for property damage, yeah we tend to lean on repair facilities when the prices they want to charge for a job are significantly out of line with the average cost for the same repair in the local area. But it’s nothing any other consumer wouldn’t do if they were shopping a repair on their own: You get several bids for a job, you pick the best compromise between price and quality. We do the same thing, except whereas the individual quietly makes his choice, we tell the repairer why they won’t be paid $x, and they can either repair the car for $Y or let someone else do it for $Y.

[QUOTE=Rick]
While you might get it thrown out of court, it is going to cost a dump truck full of money in lawyers to get it thrown out. Med pay might be $5,000.
Which is cheaper?
[/QUOTE]
Counterintuitively, I guess, the cost of the defense of a case is not considered (by my company at least) when deciding whether or not to pay a claim/stand ground and face a suit. There are a couple reasons for this, and they both boil down to “the cost of education.”

#1 is the education of the insurance company. My job is to evaluate damages/injuries and pay what a jury would be likely to award. The vast majority of my cases are settled by agreement between me and the claimant/claimant’s attorney. Sometimes we disagree about the value of, say, a broken leg or whether the accident provided the proper mechanism for a claimed spinal injury. Such an impasse is dealt with in the resulting lawsuit. During that period experts are identified and deposed, and sometimes all that information gets put in front of a jury who get to decide what makes sense. That experience is carried over into other claims.

#2 is education of the local plaintiff bar. If plaintiff attorneys get the idea they can demand $20,000 for a minor whiplash injury because it’s cheaper to pay that than to spend $30k+ on defending a suit the value of minor/nonexistent injuries would rapidly exceed the dreams of avarice, and the cost of insurance would skyrocket. By readily calling bullshit on bullshit claims, claims payments and expenses remain reasonable over the long term.

In the last 4 years I’ve had about 100 cases enter litigation. Of the dozen or so that have gone to trial I’ve never had a jury come back with a verdict in excess of my best offer. The reason for that is because, due to #1, I already know what a jury is going to say in most cases. I’ve also never had an insured (you know, the people I’m supposed to protect) complain about their case getting sued once I tell them what the plaintiff was demanding. More often than not the response is, “You offered HOW MUCH!?!?!” and then they start howling for the plaintiff’s blood.

TLDR version: No, the object of a claims adjuster is to pay what a jury would likely award, preferably without the brain damage of actually getting the case in front of a jury. But if a jury is necessary, the expense of getting there isn’t considered.

Here’s a question, raised by certain recent personal events. (And I’m sure my claims adjuster will shortly answer it for me definitively, I’m just curious how it will turn out.) How is non-vehicle property damage normally handled? Context: my teenage son hit the gas instead of the brake while trying to park my minivan in our driveway, resulting in damage to both the vehicle and the garage. Claims have been opened with both our auto insurance carrier and our home hazard insurance carrier; the latter are investigating, but have suggested that the garage repair costs will ultimately be paid by the auto carrier. Is this correct? (Seems to me it would be, but I’ve never been in this situation before.) If so, is the auto carrier likely to pick up the claim voluntarily early in the process, or will the property carrier likely pay the claim & then collect from the auto carrier via subrogation?

I’m still wondering how primary usage plays into this (apart from specific exclusions written into a policy).

If Pizza Pete is in school, and works part time delivering pizzas, his primary use of the vehicle may still not be work related. Do you only ask about primary use, or do you also ask about secondary or tertiary use? Does the least amount of commercial use invalidate his policy? What if Pete has a junker he usually delivers with, but it broke down and for a couple days now, he’s been driving his better, non-commercially insured car?

I don’t use my car for work, just to drive there and back. But a year ago, we took my car to pick up some items we had made for us. If I had got into an accident, would Insureco have told me “tough luck!”?

Ok, it’s been 4 days so I don’t reckon this is me hijacking someone else’s thread…

In a nutshell, and this is going to be sloppily put, but in a nutshell a household can’t be liable to itself. Liability insurance covers damage and injuries you do to a different household. Meaning the car is yours, the kid is yours and the house is yours = 1 household. Now, if neighbor kid runs into your house? The Property Damage Liability coverage from his car insurance policy pays for your house. Your household driver runs into your own house? The Dwelling Coverage part of your homeowner’s policy pays for the damage to the house, the Collision Coverage part of your car policy pays for the damage to the car.

See, just goes to show–I should have disowned him long ago. :wink:

I hope the trade off was here’s your $1000 but we’re arresting you for vandalism or B&E to a car or something.

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