Automated cars, your thoughts?

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
That’s the problem, it is always much less than 50 years for all AI predictions. None of of them work as predicted because computers and the human brain have about .000000001% in common. One is completely natural at what the other does and vice versa but they simply cannot accomplish what the other is good at on a practical scale.
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Yeah, but that’s for tasks that humans are good at and computers are bad at. Navigation and control of mechanical systems doesn’t really fall into that category. Computers are way better at precise control of high velocity systems than people are.

If we have automatic cars, what do we need lights for? :slight_smile: An intersection control system could just weave cars through each other.

Automatic cars will gain a foothold in a few places on a few special lanes. A particular toll road in DC or LA, perhaps, will have a special lane with markers built in. Some new cars will be built with systems to recognize those markers and recognize markers installed on other cars. People will gladly accept the machine control if it means cutting 20 minutes out of their commute each way.

The winner of DARPA’s challenge used simple cameras, no need for rfid chips or a track or gps sensors.

Selfdriving cars won’t need them either. A camera system ensures a car that can drive anywhere it can see regardless of power failures or outside conditions.

I’ve said it before and I say it again now- it will become illegal to manually drive within our lifetime.

The process will start slowly. But once we get to mark 3 or so, we’ll have a car that never gets tired, distracted, drunk, angry etc.

The car industry won’t die, but it will change. What the public wants in a car will change and the industry will compete over new things. The repair industry will undergo a change and shade tree mechanics may pass from this earth. But once we get to mark 3, we’re talking about saving lives. That’s a powerful incentive to change.

[QUOTE=Tuckerfan]
Seeing as how there’s so many inattentive drivers now, imagine how much worse things will be when they’re not required to pay attention at all. I can well imagine them staring at the controls with a blank expression on their face as alarm claxons go off.
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This is the first thing that came to my mind.

The deer in the headlights look in the parking lot.

I see it a lot living in a resort community where there are lots of rental cars, and people that may have to navigate on their own once in a while. Throw in snow or conditions that they are not used to and they pretty much come to a hault.

Call me old fashioned, but I do think it is important for people to keep their skills up. And you have to drive to do it.

OTOH. Having dedicated lanes for long haul trips that put you in a ‘train’ of vehicles may be doable. But, it is going to have to be able to take one vehicle out of the train at a time if there are any problems with the vehicle without stopping everyone.

[QUOTE=enipla]

Call me old fashioned, but I do think it is important for people to keep their skills up. And you have to drive to do it.

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Yeah, which is why you probably hunt your own food, grow your own crops, weave your own clothing, make your own leather, etc. Gotta keep those skills up.

I don’t think the public will take the the idea very well at all.

A car is a symbol of freedom, a symbol of personal control. Even if you tell people that their commute will be quicker, I don’t think they’ll go for it. And it would take a massive goverment regualtion to force it on the public. Areas of a city would have to be completly auto-drive to really get the benifits of the system. Otherwise you’ll have manual drivers cutting in and out of traffic and slowing the system down. I just really doubt that the average person is going to go for this idea at all.

[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone]
I saw a comedian talking about this the other week. He said:

“You get in the car, you tell it where you want it to take you. You don’t have to do any of the driving. It drives you to your destination. You get off. Amazing! It’s like… The bus!”
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Honestly. If public transportation wasn’t such crap we wouldn’t need stupid ideas like this.

[QUOTE=Epimetheus]
GPS and intelligent nav systems is all you would need. Implanting RF chips or whatever in the road isn’t even going to be necessary. So would tracks.
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GPS tells you where you are to within ten feet or so, and you can’t always see the GPS satellites. Implanting chips into the roadway would be the cheapest way to get around this. It would also allow you to add/subtract stop signs and whatnot by flopping the data in the chip, rather than hoping that the latest map info is in the car.

[QUOTE=DocCathode]
The winner of DARPA’s challenge used simple cameras, no need for rfid chips or a track or gps sensors.
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It also didn’t need to stay on city streets, drive according to the speed limit, stay in it’s lane, etc.

The 07 Volvo S80 is equipped with a system called BLIS Blind Spot Information System. It is a camera in each outside rear view mirror. If there is an object that is relative stationary in an area of about 10’ wide by 30’ deep, a warning light illuminates to warn the driver of something in the blind spot.
It works great. Most of the time.
I had several false positives while using the system. The light would tell me someone was there, when I turned my head no one.
Nighttime also cuts the effectiveness.
Camera systems are not there yet.

[QUOTE=SmartAleq]
I think the very best implementation of the self driving car would be for long freeway trips. Out here in the Western end of the US we have nothing like decent railway service and air travel is a fucking nightmare. If you do take a plane, you just have to rent a car at your destination in order to get around. So a dedicated pilot lane on the freeway which is only accessible to cars under remote control would be absolutely freaking great. Drive from your home to the freeway. Input your destination. Let the pilot lane take care of it as you sleep, relax, surf the internet, watch scenery, screw in the backseat, whatever. If you need to take a potty break, let the guidance system know and it puts you into the non pilot lane a mile from the next exit with services, you drive off the freeway, get food, take a pee, refuel, whatever, then get back on the freeway and resume the trip. When you get to your destination you have your own car to run around in. Less stress on the driver, fairly cheap method of travel, get to see the sights as you go–I’d sign up for it in a heartbeat. I roadtrip all the time anyway, and since I’m the only driver in the house it can get a little tiring, so leaving all the boring freeway driving to the car would be absolutely wonderful.
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This is exactly how I can see it working.

[QUOTE=the loaded dog]
I can’t see fully-auto cars happening, well ever, because of the problems raised by Tuckerfan et al. However, a car that can slip into auto mode on dedicated freeways and back to human control on other roads night be workable.

Then, this raises other problems. What if the driver has since fallen asleep, and is coming to the end of the automated roadway at 60mph? Beep beep beep resuming manual control beep beep ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ WOOP! WOOP! WOOP! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.. There are arguments that even the level of automation we have in cars today (auto trans, cruise control etc) has serious secondary “knock-on” safety effects by increasing drivers’ “remoteness” from their surroundings.
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This is relatively easy to fix, I think. If the driver doesn’t respond to the signal by taking control of the car, all the car has to do is pull itself over into the nearest designated area and stop. The alarm would then continue until the driver took notice.

I think the system SmartAleq described is an excellent compromise, at least until the technology becomes very widespread. You still get to drive your car when you want to, or if your car isn’t properly equipped, but you can safely skip the boring freeway portions and do your own thing. I’m assuming that these lanes would have a higher speed than the others, so you’d get there quicker, too, which would be a big incentive for people to update to the new technology.

[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
GPS tells you where you are to within ten feet or so, and you can’t always see the GPS satellites. Implanting chips into the roadway would be the cheapest way to get around this. It would also allow you to add/subtract stop signs and whatnot by flopping the data in the chip, rather than hoping that the latest map info is in the car.
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Not according to this site which says it gets accuracy to one inch.

You guys are overestimating the technical challenge. Automated cars already exist and have have made test drives across the country. GPS locating eliminates the need for “smart” roads. We could sell automated cars tomorrow if the market existed.

In my opinion, the big push for putting these cars on the road will come from the insurance lobby. They’re a strong special interest lobby and they have a major financial interest in reducing accidents. The face of the argument will be “public safety” but the driving force will be insurance interests.

There will be huge resistance however. Some people have a lot of their psychological worth invested in their driving ability and they’re not going to want to hear that a machine is a better driver than they are. Other people are technophobes who will not only be afraid the driving systems will fail but will fear they will “turn” on us and kill us deliberately.

[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone]
I saw a comedian talking about this the other week. He said:

“You get in the car, you tell it where you want it to take you. You don’t have to do any of the driving. It drives you to your destination. You get off. Amazing! It’s like… The bus!”
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That describes a taxi, not a bus.

[QUOTE=Epimetheus]
Not according to this site which says it gets accuracy to one inch.
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I still think you are going to run into trouble with signs and signals. It’s one thing to “see” objects on the road, it’s quite another to be able to identify a school zone sign on the side of the road. Plus, it doesn’t say whether or not it can identify other cars velocity and relative position. Obviously that is an important, and difficult thing to do through optical recognition. It would be much easier to just have the other cars broadcast where they are.

[QUOTE=Epimetheus]
I am all for this myself. I consider myself a good driver, but I don’t find it fun or relaxing (except on a dead country road), and get stressed easy. I would much rather read a book or surf WiMax while going from point A to point B. (especially long drives cross country - drive at night and sleep, wake up and you are there)

Some people have concerns about safety, but I think the switch off would be a decrease in accidents. Of course there are those that would want to ban it if one computer malfunctioned and somebody died, forget the fact that several people die in the US every day in car accidents due to human error.

What are some thoughts on if this will happen some day? Do you think it is inevitable? Do you look forward to it, or do you think it is fantasy?

I know there are many people that love driving and are very good at it, and those people might resent having a computer control their car, but what if you can turn it on and off at certain times/places?

What do you feel about this, would you ever use it? Would you resent being forced to use something like this in rush hour traffic?

I would love to see positive feelings, but I want to hear the negative comments too and why you have them. Everybody I have asked (not that many really) has liked it, but didn’t think it would ever happen. I think it is inevitable. Technology is moving in that direction and since so many people are lazy (like me) and or don’t like driving, I think there will be quite a few people taking up the idea.

Thoughts?
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I’m pissed that this hasn’t happened yet. I am so ready for this.

[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
In my opinion, the big push for putting these cars on the road will come from the insurance lobby. They’re a strong special interest lobby and they have a major financial interest in reducing accidents. The face of the argument will be “public safety” but the driving force will be insurance interests.
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Would they really get a major benefit from it? From what I hear, auto insurance is quite competitive. It’s not like everyone’s going to be paying all their old premiums and having many fewer accidents. Market forces will force down the cost of insurance as well.

I still think that the first push will come from commuters. Special high-speed toll roads are a huge incentive for a lot of people in major metropolitan areas. And the second push will come from the save-the-children crowd, once it’s demonstrated that automatic cars are so much safer than manuals.

Heh. 50 years from now “Can you drive manual?” is going to mean a very different thing than it does now.

Market forces aren’t perfect - the market can be gamed under some circumstances. The insurance business for example has fixed the rules by convincing the government to enact laws making car insurance mandatory. So drivers are forced to buy somebody’s insurance policy. Without fear of losing sales, insurance companies have a common stake in keeping prices as high as possible - the advantage that might be gained by underbidding their competitors is less than the advantage of everyone keeping their prices high.

What people are missing here is thinking of the fully functioning automated car springing up fully formed over the course of 5 to 10 years, that’s absurd and of course it won’t happen but it’s also a straw man. Instead, it will be a gradual but steady evolution of incrementally more useful advancements.

First of all, the intelligent car is almost certainly not going to be implemented first in America, instead, America will probably be the last place in the developed world that gets intelligent cars and for many of the reasons pointed out above (if you think that’s unrealistic, the average person in rural china probably has a more advanced cell phone than the average american). It has a well established infrastructure, huge capital requirements for extensive population of existing cars and a population of highly trained drivers. Instead, wher it will probably happen is in a rapidly developing country, probably in South East Asia such as Malaysia for which the cost/benifit ratio skews much higher.

Automated cars are not going to be one giant monolithic technology, instead, it will arise from the intersection of a whole bunch of different technologies that are already coming to market.

Driver support systems:

These are systems which doesn’t aim to replace the driver, but to augment their driving ability. For example, Toyota is currently experimenting with a system where cameras detect the lane markers for the road and then adjust the force feedback on the steering wheel so it feels like you’re driving in a slightly concave bowl which allows you to stay in the centre of the lane easier. Intelligent Cruise Control is already present in Mercedes cars which can keep your car a certain distance away from the car in front of you. Each of these enhancements is incrementally useful for the driver and the immediate benifit is obvious but they also form an economic incentive to build in much of the neccesary infrastructure for truely automatic cars. Right now, they’re using vision to detect lane markers, but theres problems with lighting, worn markers, road construction and so forth, RFID based lane tags would work much better. But you don’t have to RFID an entire nation for this to be useful, you simply make cars that use RFID if it’s present and defaults back to vision or eventually to “dumb cars” on rural dirt roads. The most high volume roads will start adding RFID markers first and then gradually, cities will compete with each other to be “90% RFID instrumented” (which should only require instrumenting the most common 20% of roads which carry 90% of the traffic) and then “97% RFID instrumented” (which would require about half the roads to be instrumented) and then “complete RFID instrumentation”. Voila, you have your magic intelligent roadways which make the automated car problem a whole lot easier to solve.

Car mesh networks:

Car mesh networks allow cars to communicate with each other and allows for a whole bunch of innovative driver support systems. For example, cars could brake in unison and start up again in unison which would greatly increase the efficiency of traffic lights. You could also imagine hybrid-electric cars actually touching each other as they drive and sharing a common power train so that, if you had 10 cars driving in a train, only 5 would have their engines on at full efficiency instead of all 10 and less than peak efficiency. It also allows for real time monitoring of traffic and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Because the benifits of car mesh networks become so much more compelling when every car on the road has it, there’s a strong government incentive to force compliance by saying all new cars had to have at least rudimentary mesh capabilities built in and all old cars had to be retrofitted within the next 5 years. In America, that’s a daunting prospect and one that’s politically infeasible, but if you’re in Malaysia, in 5 years time, you’re going to be earning twice the income you are now, cars with new features have come onto the market and you can ship your old car to be sold in Cambodia, upgrading is a no-brainer.

Smart GPS:

GPS is already here but it has a lot of problems with canyons and signal loss and such. It’s going to be more accurate with the addition of supporting technologies that sprout up to augment it. Ground based GPS stations can improve your accuracy to a couple of feet and help eliminate a lot of urban canyon problems. Instrumented road signs means that you no longer have to rely on GPS to tell you “turn left in 300 feet” when it’s actually 250 feet, just stick a RFID beacon exactly 300 feet from the exit. Car mesh networks means that you can get bona-fide real time traffic information for your entire trip instead of the ersatz stuff we have now and all that academic research on intelligent path planning is going to become obsolete, simply track the GPS of every single taxi in a city and you automatically get the optimal route from any location to any other location.

Smart roads:

Instrumentation is the golden word, every single bit of matter is going to have a wireless tag attached to it which tells the world exactly what it is. Every road sign, every lane marker, even every tree alongside the road. Once you have instrumentation, automated driving becomes a whole lot simpler because the world is working with you to get you to the right location, not against you. Instrumentation is coming anyway and all that’s going to be neccesary is for your car to tap into that. City councils are tagging every tree, construction managers are talking about tagging every brick in new buildings to get real time maintenence information etc etc.

Automated cars are coming, it may seem hard to spot the trends from the outset because right now, nothing coming along really looks like an automated car. There never is going to be any “special, dedicated, high speed toll roads” for atuomated cars only because there’s never going to be a clear distinction between automated and non-automated cars. Instead, everything will steadily blur into a continuum until every car turns automated and we didn’t even notice. All of these different technologies are only going to combine and reinforce each other so that the economic calculus looks inevitable.

Nope, not going to trust any newfangled computerized car, there are too many variables in driving that cannot be anticipated by a computerized “Otto Pilot”…

I’m a strong believer of less automation in my car, more manual controls, heck, i don’t even like driving automatics, for me, the manual transmission is the only way to drive

Well put Shalmaneze. Pretty much exactly the way I see the technology evolving.

And it can’t happen soon enough to suit me. I really hate driving abd would much rather be reading a book or at least catching a power nap.