Heh, have a look at this website.
I’m sorry, but not only do I not see “American Hair” as a common thing on this side of the ocean, I saw plenty of comparable hairstyles in person in the UK and still see 'em on various BBC shows and various British actors and politicians.
Sounds more like a personal obsession, my Pythonesque friend.
Meh, I don’t know. That might be the approach the average Dutchman has, what with him being convinced The Dutch Way is the best way in all things, but it’s not precisely accurate. Having spend some time on both sides of the pond, I get the feeling that while there is still more overt racism in the US (mostly due to the country being so large, groups living isolated/sheltered lives, and a natural penchant to polarise matters a little stronger than over here), there is also a hell of a lot more integration. Most white Dutch people hardly interact with minorities beyond the occasional client-store clerk encounter. The average white Dutchman certainly doesn’t have a lot of non-white friends. Truth be told, a lot of our famed tolerance is just indifference, really. Ethnic groups tend to leave each other alone, rather than interact and learn from each other. And while that may result in less racism, it breeds a whole host of other issues. But that’s probably another thread all by itself.
All in all, I’d say the US and Holland are equally prejudiced countries, just in different ways. I’m glad we don’t have groups like the KKK over here (at least not of that size, even relatively), but I do envy the way most Americans interact, regardless of race or nationality. We’re not as good at that, not by a long shot. And it’s my impression this goes for the UK as well.
I don’t know where you got that. I get just the opposite impression. One thing that’s rather striking about watching the Olympics is how diverse the American team looks compared to the European and Asian teams.
My own background is mixed. My wife is from Iran. My kids are Iraninan-Mexican-Irish-German-Italian Americans. You know how many people I’ve met who are blown away by this? None. It’s just not that rare.
Correct me if I’m wrong on this one, but when I visited London it seemed like black citizens mixed in with with the populace more. They dressed more or less like everyone else, spoke without any “ebonic” slang, didn’t come from neighborhoods of all black people, weren’t angry about being held down by the man, didn’t really have their own culture that they grasped on to.
Am I wrong in this thinking? Do many UK blacks complain about racism in the UK?
Are they concerned about equality? Do they call themselves African-English like they like to be called African-American or do they not make a big deal of it?
Afro-Caribbean is the PC term for them (except for the ones who came direct from Africa).
All the complaints you list exist, but perhaps in lesser degree than their US counterparts. There isn’t really a ‘ghetto’ here.
We are increasingly getting the whole ‘celebrate diversity, retain your culture’ thing here in recent years, though
Some of my perceptions of UK life come from UK comedy movies (usually featuring Hugh Grant) like Notting Hill or About a Boy.
One of the movies I’ve seen recently was Love Actually. It absolutely cracked me up when the one guy traveled to Milwaukee, Wisconsin so he could meet some American babes and met 5 hot chicks at a bar the night he arrived and went to spend the night with them all.
It cracked me up because I’m originally from Milwaukee and any bar near the airport with 5 hot chicks just ain’t gonna happen.
Hampshire, I think this has a lot to do with location within the US. Urban areas have more of what I guess you’d call “voluntary segregation” than rural, but you’ll also find that in Oakland there is a much higher contingency of that sort of thing than, say, Atlanta. I think there are a variety of factors at work there, including history (Black Panther influence was and is very strong in the SF bay area) and income/job distribution. I’m no expert, but it’s been my personal experience that Oakland has a very strong culture of seperating themselves from “the man” through language and general anger/aggression than anywhere else I’ve been.
I’ve wandered way off topic, I know.
P.S. I think this so-called “American hair” should be renamed “television hair” because no one has haircuts like that except people who appear on television.
QUOTE=Mk VII]Afro-Caribbean is the PC term for them (except for the ones who came direct from Africa).
All the complaints you list exist, but perhaps in lesser degree than their US counterparts. There isn’t really a ‘ghetto’ here.
We are increasingly getting the whole ‘celebrate diversity, retain your culture’ thing here in recent years, though
[/QUOTE]
London is by far the most ‘mixed’ part of the UK. Head up north, and you’ll find very definite ‘white areas’, ‘Asian areas’ (BTW generally these are either Pakistani or Bengali), and ‘Black areas’ (mostly from or descended from the '50s immigration from the Caribbean). Some certainly have all the defining characteristics of ghettos, although the isolation (geographic, political, etc) isn’t anything as bad as that in the US. Nonetheless, they’re distinct enough to riot against one another on occassions.
There’s certainly a very real issue with racism in the UK. The racist murder of Stephen Lawrence a few years ago was investigated by a racist and inept police force, and became a huge scandal. The official inquiry to the whole incident is here.
As part of this process, several significant police chiefs (including the head of Greater Manchester Police, AFAIK the second biggest force in the country) fully acknowldeged institutionial racism existed in their force. The repurcussions of this episode are still being felt. There’s also ongoing criticism of the police in their targeting of minorities, ‘traditionally’ of black people, but more recently also of Asians and particularly Muslims.
Terminology-wise, ‘Black British’ is a common term. ‘Black’ as an adjective hasn’t any of the negative PC connotations that it seems to have acquired in the US. Of course, immigration brings new conflicts; racism between kids of Caribbean descent and refugees from Somalia or immigrants from Nigeria can easily be racist, even though both sides are black. Going back to the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, the effort recently has been to place the emphasis on all relevant perceptions of an incident…if anybody perceives and incident as racist, it is supposed to be investigated as such, until proven otherwise. The reasoning being that the vital chances in the Lawrence murder were lost precisely because the police refused to regard race as the sole motive.
As for slang, my knowledge of black kids’ speech comes from south Manchester, and most of them spoke with phrases lifted off the latest CD their mates had stolen. :dubious:
100% Ugly American here, but I got a little bit of a sense of it when I went out pub-crawling in Dublin last year. Several of the Dubliners I met asked me if I lived in New York City, and one of them said he wanted to go to New York to see the NASCAR races. “It must be brilliant.” I had to regretfully explain that I’d never been to a NASCAR race, and I don’t think they hold them in New York City.
One guy from Lancesterwestfordshire or something-or-other (I was pretty drunk by that point of the evening) grabbed me by the shoulder and said, "Chook – " (my first name is “Chuck”) “Chook – I want you to know that we’re all behind you guys. We support you all the way.” It took me a minute to figure out what he meant by “you guys” – programmers? nerds? Americans? homos? – then I realized he was talking about the war. I had to tactfully explain that I don’t support the war, but, uh, thanks for the sentiment, and I’m sure the troops will appreciate it.
I’ve always wondered the same thing. Granted, my perception of it is based entirely on what I’ve seen on the BBC and about 4 days in London. But coming from Atlanta, I was surprised to see it (seemingly) treated as such a complete non-issue.
In particular, I have to admit that black/white interracial couples still get an immediate “whoa, that’s weird” reaction out of me before my brain takes over and smacks that down. But I noticed a lot more interracial couples during my brief time in London, and saw several sitcoms where the whole dating situation seemed completely colorblind. Is this just my perception, or is it the media’s putting on their best face for outsiders, or are things really more enlightened there? And if so, is it just in the big cities? And is this too long a hijack?
**Conflictsbetween kids of Caribbean descent and refugees from Somalia…
It didn’t go unnoticed, Sol!
Seriously, when I was in London last month, I was the only female I ever saw wearing shorts. The only one. It was really bizarre to me.
Aha! Now you’ve done it! You’ve got me on my soapboax.
I Hate that fecking Notting Hill Film. I work in Notting Hill (amongst other places) and spend a lot of time there and it is SOD ALL like the film.
You’d never guess from the film that Notting Hill is the homne of Europe’s largest black carnival - the Notting Hill Carnival, not to mention a very diverse population including a large moroccan contingent in Golborne Rd. There is also a staggering number of Notting Hillbillies and trustifarians not to mention the now infamous Notting Hill tories. Bridget Jones was more accurate. How often does that get said?
It is not full of stumbling floppy-haired* tart-paying chinless fops. (yes I know he was in Bridget Jones too)
- I am beginning to realise that I am perhaps a little obsessed on this subject.
Never having been in the US, I couldn’t tell, but a lot of american people make the same kind of comments about interracial couples in Europe. So, I assume that interracial dating/marriage are indeed much more common. I wouldn’t raise an eyebrow seeing a black/white couple, at least, let alone think “whoa, that’s weird”.
I’m not convinced it means there’s less less racism, though. But I often thought that the attitudes towards races in the US (observed through the lenses of the internet) are much more divisive.What I mean is that a french racist would be similar to an american racist in thoughts and actions, but an american “non racist” , whether he’s black or white would still tend to have a “us”/ “them” attitude which would sound weird to the ears of a french non racist/anti-racist. A number of comments made by american people apparently highly motivated against racism sometimes seem to me to be on the verge of segregationism.
I would note also that an european black is a person of alien origin. He’s not a member of a minority which has been around for a couple centuries, with a peculiar history. If he’s a member of a subculture, it’s either a disfranchised subculture found in some neighborhoods which include equally arab immigrants and poor whites, or a real ethnic subculture (say west-african). There’s no history of black people being present but legally kept apart from the white population, or not having the same rights, etc… They just weren’t there, and at some point began to immigrate. So, the cultural and historical background are completely different. And I’m quite convinced it plays an important part in the attitude towards racial issues.
Anything about Americans having less of a “sense of people” than Europeans? Both as to assessing their character/trustworthiness quickly, and their ethnic origin? I’m American (but don’t dress as one, I think–no tennies or shorts or sweats, ever!) and spent a month in Italy last summer. Everyone who asked thought I was Dutch, because I–well–am, and apparently look it (that’s me in Vermeer paintings). It never occurred to me before that a person could look Dutch.
I didn’t realize that wedding rings on men wasn’t universal. (although it’s not universal in the US, but it is common.)
Good Lord…on my one-and-only trip to Europe (London, two years ago) I was wearing a wedding band on my left hand and my class ring on my right. Plus a wristwatch. I must’ve looked like a pimp.
A lot of Irish guys wear wedding rings, too.
I’m sure owlstretchingtime will find something funny to say about that.
I think this might have to do with impressions of how another country OUGHT to act. I wouldn’t look twice at an interracial couple walking down the street in the US, but I might be startled to see one in France (hypothetically), because to my mind, French people are less likely to date someone of another race.
That’s just a guess, though, because interracial couples aren’t at all uncommon in the US.
Once again, I couldn’t tell, never having been in the US (and even then, I’m not sure I could, since I assume the situation depends widely on the place you are…in France too, by the way…living in Paris, I sure see way more mixed couple than I saw when I was living in the 200 000 souls town of Rennes). Actually I even live in a very mixed district, and things change drastically just by going to the downtown where I work (well…used to work an we’ll be working again in the coming days, but that’s irrelevant).
I only rely here on comments made on travel boards, with a number of people stating that they saw much more mixed couple here than in the US, not merely that they were surprised to see mixed couples in Paris.
Though now that I think about it, it could be related to what I mentionned in my first paragraph. A tourist in France is likely to be visiting Paris. And he might be from Redneck Smalltown, USA.