Aviation Question

Helicopters tend not to fly very high. As altitude increases, air density decreases. A helicopter has to slow down to prevent retreating-blade stall. It’s been quite a while since I’ve flown a fixed-wing aircraft, so I’ll have to ask about airplane efficiency.

I just read an old article about record-setting pilot Max Conrad. It mentions that engines burn less fuel at higher altitudes. I can buy that. Less air means you nead less fuel to maintain the proper mixture. With less air density, you still need to put the same amount of wind over the wings to maintain altitude; so your ground speed should be higher. But it takes power to reach those altitudes, and power means you’re burning fuel. Conrad chose to fly at 300 feet across the Atlantic Ocean because he didn’t want to use the fuel to climb.

So what’s more efficient? Burning the fuel to get up to, say, 11,000 feet and burn less fuel once you’re up there; or stay low as Conrad did, burning more fuel in cruise, but saving the fuel you would have burned in the climb? What about flying in ground effect? You’re a hot stick, so you can fly all day at 30 feet over the deck without running into a wave. Since an aircraft is more efficient in ground effect, flying at 30 feet is more efficient than flying at 300 feet, right? How does it compare to flying at high altitudes?

I’d guess that the problem is not being able to fly high enough to gain full benefit of altitude – the 11,000 feet you mentioned would suggest supplemental oxygen (certainly for a fatigued solo pilot - I don’t know much about Max Conrad, but I recall he broke some distance records in a Piper Comanche before I was born) Several days worth of oxygen tanks would get pretty heavy.

Was the Comanche a variable prop? If not, it may not get enough bite to run efficiently at high altitude (though that may just be an old locker-room UL.

A 50’s era Comanche engine probably wasn’t too efficient at high altitudes (above 10,000 ft) anyway, why would it be? It didn’t have a pressurized cockpit. (and I definitely want to risk venturi icing one a flight like that!) Modern jets, on the other hand, fly wonderfully at 30-60K to save fuel.

The problem with flying 1 chord length above the surface for ground effect is the swells. And he certainly couldn’t afford to turn back or re-route just because the seas got a little rough. Ten foot swells aren’t paticularly rough seas. i don’t know about 20 footers

Disclaimer: got my ticket when I turned 18, but have flown a plane exactly once in the past 17 years. (and that only for an hour in the Alps, with an experienced local pilot in the right hand seat)

A 50s-era Comanche engine (probably a Continental)…? Heck ALL of our Continentals and Lycomings are 30s-era! Hahahaha!

But seriously; since the air is less dense, and since the best ratio is… what? 15:1? then less fuel would be used at higher altitudes. No supplemental O2 should be needed at 10,000 feet so there’s on problem there. I’m pretty sure ground effect is a span-length, so he (or rather, our hypothetical pilot in a hypothetical piston-engine single over a hypothetically flat sea) would be able to fly at 30-40 feet.

What Conrad decided was that he would burn more fuel in the climb than he would save in the cruise. I wonder if he was right? I wonder about the efficiency of flying in ground effect too.

I’ve got the helicopter scheduled for a couple of hours on Sunday. Now if only I can find a vict… er, passenger. :smiley:

Ground effect is usually considered to start at around 10 chord widths. It really has more to do with chord than with wingspan.

As for the engine, you are confusing raw fuel burn with fuel efficiency. Yes, piston engines burn less fuel at altitude because of lower air density, but they also produce less horsepower. Efficiency is determined by how much horsepower you can produce for a given quantity of fuel. Turbocharged engines are often more efficient than normally aspirated engines, yet they do the opposite - they compress the air to increase the density of the fuel/air mixture, thus making more power.

Typically, an engine will have a power setting where it burns fuel at the optimum rate. Any altitude you fly at with that power setting will give you the roughly the same fuel burn, if you lean properly.

The reason high-altitude flight in a small aircraft is more efficient has more to do with lowering drag on the aircraft. It needs less HP to maintain the same speed, or can fly faster for the same amount of horsepower.

However, there are counterbalancing effects - the propellor, which is a flying collection of design tradeoffs, will be less efficient at high altitudes. If you fly slower, the induced drag on the wing increases. At some point, the wing just won’t be producing lift efficiently (or not at all - it’ll reach its stalling AOA just trying to maintain level flight).

The main problem in choosing an optimum altitude for an airplane is wing design. Long, thin wings work best at high altitudes, because they have the lowest amount of induced drag. But down low they are a pain, because they make the airplane harder to manoever on the ground, they take up more hangar space, and the increased bending loads of long wings require stronger, heavier spars and spar attachments.

Fat, relatively stubby wings (like the original Hershey Bar wing on the early Piper singles) work great in ground effect and at low altitudes, but the induced drag curve goes up sharply at lower indicated air speeds (at high altitudes, your true airspeed may stay the same as it was down low (or even be higher), but your indicated airspeed will be quite a bit lower).

Similarly, long, thin propellors work best at high altitudes, but ground clearance problems means that designers will have to make shorter, fatter propellors that lose efficiency in thin air. Also, if the propellor is fixed-pitch, it will be much less efficient in thin air. Fixed-pitch props have to be designed to give good takeoff performance, and that means a fine pitch that doesn’t work well at all at high altitudes where you want to grab huge gulps of the thin air to move you forward.

An aircraft designer will consider all of these effects, and come up with a compromise that best fits the ‘typical’ mission of the aircraft.

I seem to recall the chord on a Comanche is around 4 feet. If that’s the case, then Max Conrad was probably getting some ground effect efficiency flying at 30 feet. I can’t say whether or not he would have been better off flying higher without knowing all the details.

One other reason he might have flown low - winds. If he was flying into a headwind, he’d almost certainly have been better off flying low. However, the difference in wind velocity between say, 30 feet and 150 feet is almost nil, so I have to assume he felt he was getting a ground effect boost flying where he did.

Well Conrad aside, I think Johnny is trying to speak in a wholly theoretical sense, correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t have Conrad’s specifics, nor the desire to actually plot the power curves and drag ratios. So I can’t say if he was correct in his methods. He made it, so we’ll just assume his ideas had merit. Johnny, your recolections and relationships are correct.

The answer to this one is really easy. It Depends. It Depends on the plane. Especially if its a turbojet, turbofan, variable pitch prop, or fixed prop. It also depends heavily on the airfoil. Every airfoil is going to perform differently at different altitudes and pressures. In contrast each airfoil climbs with a different induced drag coefficent. A plane with very low parasite drag will likely easily recover its climb loss in cruise, a plane with high parasite drag is also going to feel the losses due to flight at low altitude in a greater manner. The mixture ratios vary widely, and the actual results could depend on the weather systems encountered en route. A jet engine operates on a much different thrust curve, and I can’t say off hand how it would perform. No doubt that when you consider speeds approaching the speed of sound altitude is going to be a massive advantage. A subsonic aircraft is going to experience exponentially increased drag loss as it approaches the speed of sound. Considering the speed of sound increases (generally) with altitude and the shock waves are amplified by pressure, its quite safe to say that with all current jet aircraft altitude is a significant advantage.

I presume that in Conrad’s times he was fully aware of the basic flight dynamics and had access to adaquate performance data to compare the trade offs in his choices. Under that assumption I’m going to say that considering his equipment he knew best. And as such I feel confident in saying that in his aircraft low altitude flight was ideal.

Under all circumstances except trans-sonic flights, flying in ground effect is likely to offer a huge benefit. But is of course completely unrealistic in any practical use. It is reckless and illegal, not to mention impossible due to the terrain and waves of the surface. One can nearly fly with no induced drag in ground effect, and a light weight effecient plane could take full advantage given the stud flyboy.

In teresting thread-anybody see those giant ground-eefect jobs that the Russians have been playing with? I saw a show on cable, and the Russians built one that was as big as a 747-a huge thing flying just above the water! Is there any future for these things (I don’t know what you call them)?

Which airport are you flying from, Johnny? Orange County? Burbank? LAX? Ontario? (I think you had said once that you do all your flying out of Burbank.) Would the passenger get to fly for free? :slight_smile:

Arnold,

Sadly, as a private pilot, I am unable to charge a fee for giving people rides. :frowning:

I’ve got the Schweizer 300CB scheduled for 14:00 on Sunday the 7th, if you want to show up.

Oh… Group 3 Aviation, Van Nuys, off of Hayvenhurst on Holt.

Ouch! That’s about a 60-mile drive for me. On the other hand, it’s a free helicopter ride… :slight_smile:

I’ll check with the missus to see what I’m doing this week-end. (The joys of having an SO.)

If I e-mail you before Saturday 17:00, would that be OK? Or do you need confirmation before that? BTW, how many passengers are you allowed? Just the one, I imagine.

egkelly, I assume you meant the Orlyonok

http://www.plugcom.ru/~volga/oimage.htm

It is a working system, and they have developed much larger prototypes. You saw them on TLC’s Extreme Machines. It supports my explanation. Pretty cool, but really only practical for close to shore, and short crossings. The benefit probably doesn’t outweigh the ability to fly over and around weather, very critical in the open ocean.

Arnold,

The sooner the better. :slight_smile:

Johnny, I will send e-mail to the address listed in your profile. The SO is a schoolteacher, so I can’t contact her during the day because she’s in class.

Thank you for the kind offer though.

OK, I wanna see posts from Johny L.A. and Arnold Winkelried first thing Monday morning. :wink:

Manhattan,

As you can see, I made it back safely. Beautiful flight down the coast.

Welcome back. I couldn’t be more pleased. You know I worry about all you Teemers when you’re away from the boards. Now what did you do with Arnold? :wink:

Arnold couldn’t make it, so I had to fly around with an empty seat. It was really, really pretty out there today!

I think the general name for egkelly’s Russian low-flying thing is “wing-in-ground-effect vehicles”. Not nearly as compelling as “Caspian Sea Monsters”, which is a less technical name. The Soviets had planned both anti-shipping and amphibious assault versions; I don’t know if they were Navy or Air Force. Anyway, I suppose they fit into more or less the same category as hydrofoils and hovercraft - neat engineering ideas which probably won’t be used on a large scale. They can all come in handy for short-haul commuter routes where speed is at a premium, though.

Apparently the Caspian Sea Monsters could leave surface effect for short periods, and gain altitude, and fly like a (really ungainly) plane. So they were very fast for ships (80-100 knots) and really slow for aircraft. Also, they are quite fuel efficient for aircraft.

Aha! We’re back to the OP! The concensus seems (just barely) to be that flying in ground effect is more efficient than flying at altitude.

I don’t think that is the consensus at all. It is: different fans for different plans cough. Fuel efficiency per se is not the issue for plane design, it is merely one of a number of objectives.

Presumably, optimal altitude would depend on the price of fuel, desired range, speed etc. Given that airlines are out to make a buck, it would seem clear that modern altitudes suit modern objectives given the state of technology.