Awful Story—Needs Chief Scott's Input!

[Rhythmdvl]

I’d like to ask a quick question or two if I may, and help keep this out of MPSIMS. For someone who grew up between the New London submarine base and the Groton shipyards, I’m pretty ignorant of submarine physics.

First off, what are the engineering nightmares of attaching a set of cables to the sub and hoisting? Nowhere to clip them on to? Of course you couldn’t just tie one end on the conning tower, but couldn’t something be worked out? No way to tie / attach it? Couldn’t a net or basket or loop (help me, I’m struggling here) be maneuvered via submersible? Way to heavy? Well, there are some pretty big ships out there, wouldn’t they just need to displace (or whatever the right term is) equal to or more mass than the sub? Of course, there is always the problem of having a couple thousand meters of reaalllly thick cable lying around, and a big ‘ol hoist sitting on the deck of a carrier. But if they can last for a week or two down there, what would be the major stumbling blocks to doing this? I’m not saying it should work, I’m just wondering why it won’t.

Secondly, how much of the sub’s volume is made up of ballast tanks? I never paid too much attention to the models I was building as a chillun… What is stopping them from attaching tanks, filling them with air from the surface, and raising the sub a bit that way? Is it in the attaching? Is it the fear that the sub will break apart as it rises? Again, I am not so much suggesting what they should do, I am asking what makes this easily dismissable. Remember, this is GQ and I have a bit of ignorance to remove.

Lastly, what other cockamamie ideas have been floated? I assume that in order to save the crew, they don’t really need to surface the sub, just get it to a depth that is a bit more manageable. Scooting out of the ship at 100 feet is a lot easier than 1,000, no?
Thanks for listening,

Rhythmdvl

[MadHatter]

Does anyone know how long the crippled sub can be oxyginated for?

[waterj2]

The way that the US Navy uses for escaping from a sub in a similar position would work, I believe at that depth. The basic idea is to get into the escape trunk (a Los Angeles class sub has a forward and a rear escape trunk, each can hold two people), fill it up to the hatch with water, pressurize the chamber to the pressure outside the sub, then the door opens and you swim to the surface, saying “ho ho ho.” Also, you have to wear a Steinke hood, which is kind of like a life jacket with a hood and mouthpiece.

In the chamber, the escape hatch is at the top, with a lip around it so that when it is full of water, you can still keep your head above water. From when you pressurize the chamber you have a timeframe to reach the surface in to avoid getting the bends. This timeframe depends on the depth. Once the door swings open (pressure on both sides being equal) you twist the mouthpiece on the Steinke hood to off, duck your head under, and exit.

The “ho ho ho” part is to let the air out of your lungs before it expands and kills you. The procedure used to call for the doc on the sub to puncture everyone’s eardrums with a needle first, but I believe that has been determined to be unnecessary.

At the sub base in Groton, they used to have a 100’ tower full of water with an escape trunk at the bottom for practice, but now they only practice in a pool with the trunk door in about 4’ of water (they use a Sturgeon class trunk, which has the door on the side and holds about 6 people).

[APB9999]

Whatever happened to the Glomar Explorer?

[mazirian]

A related story from WWII:

ESCAPE FROM THE PERSEUS

On the night of 6 December 1941, the British submarine
Perseus was shaken by a blast that ripped a hole in its
bow. Minutes later, it lay on the seabed, with most of
its 60 crew members dead. John Capes, 31, a stoker,
survived by escaping through a hatch as the submarine lay
170ft (52m) underwater. He is the only person known to
have escaped from a shipwreck at such a depth. In his
report to the Royal Navy, Capes, who died 10 years ago,
described how the compartment he was in near the
submarine’s stern flooded last, although the 2,040-ton
Perseus had already settled on the seabed.

Capes was with three crewmen who were injured, and managed
to open the hatch by activating an escape mechanism that
flooded the compartment to equalise the pressure. After
boosting their courage with a bottle of rum, Capes used a
device known as the Davis Submerged Escape Apparatus to
float himself and his three crewmates out of the submarine.
However, there was no sign of the others when he surfaced.
After swimming for several hours, he managed to reach the
island of Caphalonia and collapsed on the shore near the
village of Skalla, where he was found by residents the
next day. They hid him from Italian and later German
occupation forces until 31 May, when he was smuggled by
ship to Izmir, Turkey, and freedom.

The wreck of Perseus, leaning slightly on its
starboard side, was located last February with the aid of
sonar by a six-member diving team headed by Kostas
Thoctarides. An Italian mine anchor near the wreck provided
the answer to the submarine’s sinking. Apart from a tear
caused by the mine on its port side, the vessel is in
perfect condition. Its gun and wheel on the bridge are
still in place, while the compass still works. A hatch was
open, as Capes had described, and an empty bottle of rum
lay just inside the compartment. Inside the hatch
Thoctarides saw human bones, a now-empty boiler suit and
three boots, indicating that at least two people had died
in the compartment. The divers didn’t enter the submarine
as it is a war grave.

D. Telegraph, 18 Feb 1998.

A more detailed version of the story:

Home - Divernet

[lswote]

*Originally posted by Athena *
**

*Originally posted by Ukulele Ike *
If they’re really lying on the sea floor at 420 feet, the water pressure will crush them like pistachios as soon as they leave the sub.

Some articles are saying 300 feet, which seems as though it might be OK. I think I’ve heard of skin divers going down to 250 feet or so… **

I just watched this show last week where a guy set a new dive record with a 2-breath dive to 520 feet and he wasn’t crushed. He held his breath until about the 300 foot mark where he took one breath from an air tank and finished ascending to 520 feet and then back to the top without breathing again till he got to the surface. He used weights to get to depth and then dropped the weights and held onto an air filled balloon to get back to the top so his whole time under water was only 3 minutes, but he wasn’t crushed or even injured according to the program.

[London_Calling]

Apparently (according to the Navy) we do have the wherewithal to do the job irrespective of weather - the team just got back from practicing a fairly similar manoeuvre off Norway.

It’s a ship bound rescue vessel but they’re ready to go now if asked.

Don’t know where the nearest US team might be but at least there seems to be some hope. Much depends on the carbon monoxide levels.

Must be very, very cold and quiet down there.

[matt]

Wanderer said:

"I just watched this show last week where a guy set a new dive record with a 2-breath dive to 520 feet and he wasn’t crushed."

That’s impressive, but the situation is different. Starting at the surface, the pressure increases gradually as he dives, compressing his chest and the air in his lungs. He can use this compressed air to equalise the pressure in the air spaces in his head so his eardrums don’t rupture. This pressure also supports his chest from the inside.
When taking the breath from the tank, the air is delivered at the same pressure as the water at the depth he is at, so he can continue this equalisation process.

A direct escape from the sub at 450ft will involve jumping the pressure you experience from 1 atmosphere to 15 atmospheres. This will almost certainly rupture the eardrums, which HURTS. To balance the pressure on your body, your lung volume will have to be reduced by 15 times, which I suspect is beyond the normal range of volume change they can accomodate. The guy you saw coped with a 10-fold change, which is more than I would have guessed was possible. I don’t know what happens if you take it further. Broken ribs?

Using the escape trunk and Steinke hood, the prospects are better. While the escape trunk is pressurising, you can equalise your internal air spaces by breathing the pressurised air. As you travel to the surface, you have to exhale continuously to prevent the expanding gas in your lungs from doing any damage. The bends are unlikely since there isn’t enough time for appreciable amounts of nitrogen to dissolve into your blood.

You DO risk the bends if you hang around in the chamber taking many breaths after it’s been pressurised, or if pressurising takes too long. You also risk:

1. ruptured eardrums if you have difficulty equalising the pressure in your head during pressurisation.

2. ruptured eardrums if you have difficulty equalising the pressure in your head during decompression as you rise to the surface. This can be a problem if you have a cold.

3. getting narked from the high pressure nitrogen and forgetting what your supposed to be doing.

4. running out of air on the way up because you let it out too fast.

5. damaging your lungs on the way up because you let it out too slow.

All in all, this type of escape is a real last resort.

[Spider]

I got this from a useless info webpage. Would this be possible, given the sub’s double hull?

How Donald Duck helped save the day.
If we zoom back to December of 1964, we will find the freighter Al-Kuwait sitting on the floor of the Persian Gulf at an 87 degree list to port.

Big deal you say.

Well, it was a really big deal to the residents of Kuwait. You see, the ship went down with approximately 6,000 sheep on board right in the middle of Kuwait’s main source of water. Thousands of rotting carcasses in your water supply would make anyone concerned.

It was obvious that they had to raise the ship to save the water supply, but no one was quite sure how to do it.

The solution actually came from the Danish manufacturer, Karl Kroyer. He had remembered reading a 1949 Walt Disney comic book in which Donald Duck was faced with a similar problem - how to raise a sunken yacht. Donald and his three nephews (Huey, Dewey, and Louie, just in case you forgot) came up with a great solution: they filled the yacht up with Ping-Pong balls and brought it back up to the surface.

Kroyer decided to try a similar approach. Clearly, getting your hands on enough Ping-Pong balls to raise a 2,000 gross ton cargo ship has never been an easy task. Instead, Kroyer developed a system in which powdered polystyrene was boiled to form pearl-sized air-filled balls. Essentially, he was making his own small Ping-Pong balls right there on the site. Once the bubbles were formed, they intended to pump them down into the ship’s hull.

Kroyer arranged for all of the boilers, pumps, and chemicals to be flown from Denmark to Kuwait. We can be quite sure that they pumped and pumped and pumped.

So, did this crazy scheme work?

You bet. It took an estimated 27 million polystyrene balls, but the Al-Kuwait was successfully brought back to the surface and the Kuwaiti water supply was saved.

The total cost to save the ship was $435,000. Since the ship was insured for $2 million, the insurance company made out very well.

And they can all thank a fictional character named Donald Duck (and his cartoonist, Carl Barks).

[Crusoe]

I don’t know if that would work in this case, Spider. It sounds like that method took quite a while to plan, manufacture, ship and put into place, and these submariners don’t have that much time. Plus, the submarine may already be damaged and any tampering with its hull could flood the whole thing.

[Crusoe]

A rescue attempt using a pressurised diving bell has failed due to poor surface weather. There are also reports that the escape hatch that any submersible would have to dock against is damaged and unusable. As if that wasn’t bad enough, the diving bell can only carry 20 people at a time, and takes 7 hours to resurface, and reports suggest that the crew have only 72 hours’ of oxygen (and have been trapped for around 48 hours already). Attempts to resupply the submarine with oxygen from the surface also failed.

Options for a rescue operation have been limited by a number of factors, including the depth of the water, poor weather conditions and serious damage to the front of the Kursk. But according to naval experts, there are a number of possible methods for a successful submarine rescue:

Individual escape: The fact that the Kursk has grounded about 100 metres down probably rules out any escape by the crew using individual survival suits, even if these are carried in sufficient numbers. Water pressure at such a depth would be crushing and would make any such move extremely dangerous. Western experts also say that the crew would need a high level of training to leave the submarine in this way.

Refloating: There could be an attempt to raise and refloat the submarine using a surface ship with underwater air pipes, though given its massive weight and size, and the fact that it has probably taken on water, this would be hugely difficult. Western naval sources say that this would not be the preferred method for a Nato navy. If the Kursk were badly damaged, this kind of operation could make matters worse, even splitting the vessel open and releasing radioactive material.

Rescue by submarine: Russia has deep-diving mini submarines like those used in the past to investigate the remains of the Titanic. Such vessels, if available, could operate as miniature submarine life-boats, attaching to the Kursk’s escape hatch and ferrying its crew out in small groups. But these vessels are reportedly based in the Baltic and could take several days to arrive. Another problem could be that the escape hatch on the Kursk has sustained damage and can no longer be operated.

Diving bell: Rescuers could deploy a type of Russian diving bell, known as the Kolokol, which can carry 10-15 people back to the surface at a time. The bell has an airlock to allow the crew to acclimatise to pressure changes as they float to the surface, avoiding decompression sickness or the bends. The success of such an operation would be affected by sea conditions, underwater currents and the angle of the submarine lying on the sea floor.

Correspondents say it is hard to know how long the crew can survive, but Russia’s navy chief Vladimir Kuroyedov has given a gloomy assessment of their chances, describing them as “quite low”.

One sobering assessment from a Russian military expert pointed out that if a rescue were feasible, it would already have been carried out.

[rocking_chair]

the swim to the surface idea would work for a trained crew, and survivial suits. not may on board the boat had this training. also the water temp. would be prohibitive, without the suit.

as of this morning, the uk has a boat on route and are waiting for a “please help” from russia. they will get a close as they can so they can act quickly if a request comes. there is a linking problem with a uk to russian boat.

the russians have made attempts with a kolokol, heavy seas have hampered the linking between the diving bell and the sub.

the us deep subs are in the pacific and would take a bit of time to get on scene, also there is a linking problem.

[xenophon41]

Free ascent
waterj2 got it right, folks. The water pressure would not “crush” any of the sailors, as they would pressurize their escape chamber to the surrounding sea pressure, then flood the chamber, open the hatch and ascend. (Flooding the chamber first allows equalizing the environments on either side of the hatch. Also allows the sailors time to hyperoxygenate their blood through hysterical panting. Trust me.) With rescue vehicles standing by at the surface, the sailors would be retrieved and rushed to decompression facilities.

Unfortunately the Oscar class subs don’t have US style escape hatches, so the procedure would have been to use their torpedo tubes, which can be pressurized and flooded in the same manner as escape hatches. They would not be “blown” out of the tubes; they would actually swim out. This is impossible for the Kursk because their bow compartment (torpedo room) is flooded and inaccessible.

[side note]I’m sorry to hear they’re no longer using the tower in New London for training; there’s just nothing like riding up from the 50’ mark in a Steinke hood to make you realize you never want to try it for real.[/side note]

Refloating
Could be done, but most likely not in time for the trapped sailors, unless the supply lines from a surface vessel can be reattached via diving bell. Unfortunately, there’s no telling how damaged the sub really is.

One possibility would be to use compressed air from the ballast air tanks to pressurize the flooded compartment, forcing the water out of the compartment and conceivably making the sub light enough to “swim” off the surface under propulsion. This, of course, is highly unlikely for the following reasons - they probably don’t have the air and they probably don’t have the battery power.

Another possibility would be to attach float harnesses around the sub, which presents its own set of problems and could also result in breaking up the ship.
Rescue
Their best bet is to let the Royal Navy help. (I believe the RN can resolve the hatch compatibility issues.) This is complicated by the severe list of the sub on the bottom.
Here’s what it’s like aboard the Kursk right now:[ul][li]Their vessel is severely tilted, so it’s difficult to move around (although they will be staying very still and quiet; most of the crew will be under orders to try and sleep).[]It is very dark aboard, with emergency lights and battle lanterns growing progressively dimmer.[]It is getting very, very cold, as most electrical equipment on board is shut down.[]Many of the men may be hurt.[]They undoubtedly lost some of their comrades in the explosion/collision/accident.And they know the odds for survival are against them.[/ul][/li]
As an ex bubblehead I can’t stop imagining myself in their situation. I hope the Russians will ask for help (if they need it) in time for this crew.

[SwimmingRiddles]

FWIW, I saw a piece on the news where they said the reason they haven’t sent American or British rescue subs down is because A.) The Russians say they’re managing just fine, thank you. and B.) No one knows if an American/British sub would form a tight enough seal at that depth to a Russian sub.

Note to self: don’t join the navy in a country with a faltering economic status.

[Profane]

*Originally posted by xenophon41 *

As an ex bubblehead I can’t stop imagining myself in their situation. I hope the Russians will ask for help (if they need it) in time for this crew.

IKWYM. My husband is underway right now. This is my worst fear. It’s hard enough not to worry normally. I’m going nuts right now.
I can’t imagine how their families are feeling now. I get tears in my eyes just thinking about it.
Now I’m crying again, dammit.

[Profane]

They just sent the British rescue sub. What good it will do, who knows.

[Finagle]

*Originally posted by Eve *
**100 Russians trapped in a sub—I’m shivering in my boots just thinking about it:

**

Not to be flippant, but shivering in your boots sure beats shivering in Das Boot…

[SkeptiJess]

My husband is underway right now. This is my worst fear. It’s hard enough not to worry normally. I’m going nuts right now.
I can’t imagine how their families are feeling now. I get tears in my eyes just thinking about it.
Now I’m crying again, dammit.

My husband is a carrier sailor, but still… {{lunasea}} I’m with you, sister.

And, Xenophon41? Your breakdown of what it must be like aboard the Kursk right now made me cry. What a horrible situation. As an atheist, I can’t say I’m praying for them, but I’m surely, surely hoping this all comes right. Those poor men and their poor families… <shudder>

[Eve]

Latest news gets worse and worse. It seems there were two major explosions as early as Saturday, which sent the sub to the bottom with a resounding crash; some or all of the sailors might have been killed right away (which may be preferable to what they’d be going through right now).

Still no hookup or sound of life, so it doesn’t look at all hopeful. I wonder if Russia would even attempt to lift the sub, or just leave it there as a less expensive “memorial?”

[flodnak]

Last I heard, Russia would like to get the sub up, regardless of whether the sailors are dead or alive. It has nothing to do with recovering the bodies and everything to do with fears of spying.

You know what the worst part is? The bastards won’t even answer mothers and fathers and wives who want to know if their sons and husbands are among the men down in that sub. I have a lot of thoughts about the Russian military right now, few of them printable.