I don’t see how he could have meant anything other than what he said, that when he knelt next to the girl he couldn’t reach the window, so he knew she couldn’t and that’s when he decided to lift her up.
Look at the photo in the article you linked , particularly the man’s foot. There’s no way an adult man kneeling down couldn’t have reached that window with his fingertips. So he’s lying about why he picked her up. I don’t know why he picked her up (although I have my suspicions) but it wasn’t because he couldn’t reach the window kneeling next to her.
The family’s lawyer says RCCL is creating a “false narrative” , but I’ve only seen them say two things - that the accident happened due to grandpa’s unforeseeable recklessness and in the court documents, they apparently say that “held her by and out of the open window for thirty-four seconds before he lost his grip and dropped Chloe out of the window,”. Which part of that is in question because of the reenactment ? He was certainly reckless, I can’t imagine how the cruise line could have forseen it and holding her “by and out of” the open window includes holding her “by” the open window.
The “and out of” part is the part that I don’t see in the video. The “by” part was never in dispute. But since part of their liability issue will no doubt have to do with just how obvious it was the window was open (from, what, 11 floors up?), and physical touch would tend to be an even more reliable way of telling that than sight, particularly with some kind of impaired or deficient vision, they would seem to have a vested interest in favoring a narrative in which the grandfather is supposed not only to have been stupid enough to hold a baby up to an open window (whether he knew it was open or not) but out of one. And yes, as if I need to say it, the family has a vested interest in this too. And the lawyers.
With that said, I am particularly interested in—most concerned with—possible inconsistencies or… “overreaches” in the cruise line’s story because they, unlike the family, will have the power and resources at their disposal to manipulate the media and the court systems far more effectively than the family. It’s a power imbalance that poses far greater risk of an injustice or coverup being perpetrated than just this one old man, his no doubt distraught family, and the handful of lawyer(s) representing them.
This really needs to be emphasized. ASL is simply asking for an impossible standard.
It looks like the grandfather was offereda plea deal for the charge of negligent homicide. If he would accept responsibility then no jail time.
Even for criminal cases, the video doesn’t have to prove the events 100% all by itself. It’s a critical piece of evidence but not everything.
Looking online, Free Legal Advice has the elements for criminal negligence. I don’t know if this applies to Puerto Rico, but I use it. The first element that the prosecution must prove that the defendant was aware of unjustifiable risk associated with the events that led to a death.
IMHO, if the grandfather knew that the window was open then this would be clear because any reasonable adult would know the risk of having a toddler that close to an open window with an 11-floor drop onto concrete would be fatal.
The defense will argue that the grandfather would have no idea that the window was open.
Unless I heard from an expert saying otherwise, the claim that colorblindness would mean he couldn’t see the difference between an open and closed window seems farfetched to he.
This video seems to support the charges against the grandfather. The question if he should be prosecuted or not is a separate issue.
Yeah, I don’t see how the claim that he could not reach the glass when kneeling makes ANY sense. See how he moves his arm in the interview - the glass at that level was WELL within reach of an outstretched arm. This purported explanation/excuse makes no sense.
And nice photo in front of the fraternal order of police symbol. FUCK YOU for trying to get sympathy or gain credibility as a retired cop!
I want to see Sam Anello reenact the incident on the 11th deck of the cruise ship.:mad: would that be cruel and unusual, show us how you dropped the baby over board, which way did she tumble all the way down since you watched her. :mad:
No, I’m really not. I’m taking issue with a string of comments, that culminated in this (bolding mine):
So do you, TokyoBayer, agree or disagree that the video in question shows, “clear as day” or otherwise, that grandpa stuck his head/upper body out the window, and then put the toddler out the window too?
And I want to go back to my verrrrrry first post in this thread (back when the board was still split on whether or not grandpa should be charged, and it wasn’t quite as cool yet to curb-stomp the grieving family), where I said:
It has ALWAYS been my position that the grandfather should be charged, whether he knew the window was open or not, whether he stuck the baby out the window or not.
I am not now, nor have I ever demanded, “an impossible standard” of evidence, as TokyoBayer and Dinsdale seem to want to claim. I am presently arguing about a specific point of fact—the claim that the video shows grandpa putting his head out the window, and then the baby—and arguing that whether that actually happened or not, the currently available (to us) evidence does not actually show that.
I don’t understand what ASL is asking for, or what point they are trying to make, so I’m not responding to him/her.
Watch the GF’s interview:
He claims he could not reach the lower part of the window. BS - clearly false.
He uses weasel words in describing that, saying something like he “sorta” could not reach it with his fingertips.
He then says he held her in a bear hug, demonstrating with both arms clenched.
He then says he tried to rap on the glass, modifying his 2-arm bearhug to 1-arm.
The “recreation” with the doll portrays NOTHING like a 1- or 2-armed bear hug.
I’m sure this guy is torn up, and I DO NOT suspect he intentionally killed the kid. But he IS a fucking liar.
Well, also, that family had been leaving food for the gators :eek: trying to get them to come closer. In direct contravention of Disney safety guidelines.
It’s like the people in my neighborhood who refuse to lock up their dog/cat food outside and then are surprised when the coyotes eat their pomeranian.
I hope someone will help me out here, as my vision issues are interfering. I looked at the photo linked in ASL’s post, and can see a windowsill on the inside of the window. Then is there a ledge outside the window or is that the deck/street three stories below? And are the windows angled so the top is farther from the railing than the bottom?
I 'm trying to shudder reenact this (sans toddler). I’ve held toddlers up to (closed, ground floor) windows, and if they’re facing out, as Chloe would have been, my natural inclination would be to hold her with a hand firmly grasping each side of her waist while letting her feet rest on the windowsill, especially if the window is angled away from the railing. (Of course, this is with me assuming the window was closed.)
Is it possible from the video to see how the step-grandfather is holding her as he leans forward?
Finally, how does the window open? Has the entire pane simply been removed, or does it slide up somehow? It’d be harder to see the window was missing if the pane were simply removed. If it slides up, then it’s harder to think it’s closed.
In the video he was holding her as you described, straight out with both arms fully extended. His “bear hug, banging with one hand” line is a flat-out lie.
Did we watch different videos? Because I can’t see his arms because of how the vertical columns, which are not part of the window, obstruct the view. This is the video I am watching:
This is the point I keep trying to argue: people are claiming the video shows things that, to my eyes at least, it doesn’t.
Really? I’ve read that someone who worked at the resort said that “guests sometimes would feed the alligators” there, but no accusations that the boy’s own family did.
And because that was a bit snarky, this is what I see in the video: he picks up the child, extends his arms fully outward and upward at around a 50 degree angle or so off the horizontal to lift her over the guardrail then lowers his arms back to around 0 percent off horizontal with his arms still extended. While you can’t see his hands, you can see his shoulder and upper arm.
The cruise lines claims*–and video seems to support–that the step-grandfather leaned out the window for 8 seconds before picking up Chloe. My guess is he was checking out the view to determine if there was anything to show her. Then I think Springtime for Spacers nailed it:
At that point, the grandfather lost his one-armed grip on her. (You can clearly see his right arm in the still frames of the video.)
So yes, I’m sure he knew the window was open, and he definitely made some terrible and foolish errors in judgment (perhaps with alcohol in his system). I don’t think the cruise lines was at fault, and I understand the negligent homicide charges now. What a horrible, horrible tragedy. I don’t think I could watch that video again.
I disagree with your interpretation of events. That’s it. You’re claiming to see things that I cannot. And the video Enola Gay posted seems to be the same video, albeit with some arrows and trimmed to stop sooner and including sound.
I do see his upper arm myself, but I see it down at his side, as if his forearms are across his chest (perhaps cradling the child). From there, he hunches forward, possibly to move to position (with difficulty, explaining the time) the child onto the windowsill, but I don’t really know. As I said, it’s a bad angle and the video is grainy. I don’t see arms straight out full extended, except maybe briefly as he’s moving her over the rail, and then I see the upper arms again as described above, which to me looks like holding the child to his chest. Maybe.
FWIW, I googled the average weight of an 18 month old female child. It’s 23 pounds. Coincidentally, I have a 20 pound dumb-bell. So I, a physically fit (but not body-lifting, more of a cardio guy) did a little experiment. I tried to either “Michael Jackson” or “Lion King” with that weight. I can do it, but only with great exertion that I wouldn’t want to maintain for long. My arms start trembling almost immediately and I have to arch back to maintain my balance. My conclusion? I don’t see this much older, somewhat less fit (just going by the look of him) grandfather holding, or even attempting, a Lion King/Michael Jackson/arms-outstretched pose. What I suspect happened is that he had her to his chest and on the wooden railing until he hunched over, at which point he was still probably holding her fairly close. I expect that he got her feet onto the windowsill, and then expected to transfer some of her weight to the window, but there was no window there to hold her, and so he lost her. That’s my swag, because, I mean, like I’ve been saying, we can’t actually see what happens due to the poor quality of the video and the camera angle.
ETA:
This is precisely what I am trying to refute. Nothing clearly shows him leaning out the window, and the attorneys for the family have indicated (with a picture and a stand-in) that he’d have had to lift himself off the ground to double over far enough to poke out the window.