Babylon 5 was great television science fiction....

Overall, the best sci fi show I’ve ever seen. Sure, I like Trek (for various reasons) - even managed to find glimmers in Voyager. But Bab 5 was better in many ways.

There were things that, in retrospect, were let downs. All the anticipation and the wrap up of the war with the Shadows was that? Talking all about “the Great Machine” on the planet, and all the technology hidden there, and then it never shows up again after season 2? I expected something from the weapons to be used in the Shadow war - nope.

I do think that JMS did a spectacular job adjusting his story to the unpredictable changes. First, the loss of Sinclair and having to create a new Captain, Sheridan. He surely didn’t anticipate that. In fact, I think his original storyline was to wait and not do the Bab 4 storyline (with the Great Machine and Valen) until the Finale. Look at what he did with Sheridan - getting “taken”. I’m convinced he intended that to be Sinclair going to be Valen. It makes even more symmetrical sense with D’Lenn being transformed to half human early, and then that energy being the transform later. So Sinclair would have had the 20 years or whatever living with a Minbari before becoming one. Look at the setup for that episode, and all the “Not The One” vs. “The One” stuff. Note how he had to somehow cobble up a three person “The One”. I thought that was pretty lame itself, but understood trying to make sense of what he’d already set up in the previous episode and all the later events.

Second, the departure of Talia Winters. Personally I thought the story excuse sucked big time. But the actress was leaving, he had to do something, and I liked the way he recovered by bringing back Lyta. He needed a telepath for the storyline, so his recovery was dragging her back, and using it as an excuse to build the TP/Vorlon connection. Nice recovery. Then was the questionable return for a fifth season. When he didn’t know it was going to happen, he struggled to compress the events for 2 seasons into one and isolate the key elements to end the story. Originally, I think the war would have lasted into season 5, and some of the other items would have been intermingled differently. I’m not sure, but it’s possible the whole TP storyline in season 5 was added because the other stuff was already concluded. And then in parallel was Claudia’s departure. He couldn’t kill her because he had already made the Finale where she’s alive in the future, so he had to give her a motivation to leave that was believable. Thus the death of someone close to her. And to make that more powerful, it was the sacrificial death.

dlb said:

That’s not the end of it. Claudia told the story. It began with a prank pulled on JMS by those two and a convention, where they arranged for the audience to greet him with silence. “And now, here’s JMS.” crickets So his revenge was that script. Eventually, at a convention in France Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurassic lip-locked for a couple minutes.

Along those lines, Claudia mentioned that JMS had an annoying habit of taking jokes of hers and making them happen. She said at one point she commented to him that Ivanova was too uptight, she should have sex with an alien or become a lesbian or something. Shortly thereafter was the Talia relationship. Similarly, she arranged with JMS to make a joke on Jason Carter (Marcus) that he was going to die. And then three weeks later they read the script where it happened.

(In case you haven’t guessed, she was at a convention not long ago that I attended.)

One comment about a way B5 is so much better than Trek - a military that actually seems like a military. They have real weapons. They actually use battle tactics. The closest thing to battle tactics in Trek is “evasive maneuvers”. Every once in a while they’ll make a coordinated attack, but that’s about it. 1. Take three hits. 2. Lose shields. 3. Fire back aimed at the enemy’s weapons. 4. “We’re being hailed.”

MGipson said:

Esprix said:

I asked her about that. First, when season 5 was not expected, she committed to doing a movie. Then season 5 was back on, she requested time off. Basically she wanted to do 8 of the 22 episodes. (Conveniently that’s how many Tracy Scoggins did.) Plus, she brought up the issue of the raise. Why? She was being paid beaucoups less than any of the other regulars. She was drastically underpaid compared to the others. So of course she wanted a raise. But JMS didn’t like her making those requests, and so he said no. She claims he’s a bit of an egomaniac. That’s her side of the story, anyway. Oh, there’s also a third reason she refuses to discuss with anyone - it’s personal.

As for her character moving on, the original idea was to have Ivanova take over B5. With her departure, he had to invent a way for a new character to be trusted by Sheridan so easily - and we get his third wife.

MGipson said:

Definitely agree.

whiterabbit said:

At the Houston con, she brought them, and was personalizing autographs. Everyone there would hear she was in Playboy and say “Wouldn’t it be funny to walk up and ask her to sign it?” Then I’d point out she brought them and was doing exactly that. Kinda ruins the joke.

You know, it’s amazing that some people think a woman who agrees to have nekkid pictures of her published in a national magazine would be embarrassed or offended when asked to sign them.

I mean, do they think she’s shy or something?

That also explains “Acts of Sacrifice” where she did have “sex” with that alien who was evaluating the worthiness of the other races before joining the alliance. Probably the most broadly (heh) funny scene of the series.

For a complete discussion regarding Claudia’s departure from B5, see the About Claudia Christian’s Departure page on the Lurker’s Guide. It has direct quotes from both JMS and Claudia.

All in all, a sad, sad story.

We did hear of the Great Machine during the Earth civil war. Its power was used to power “The Voice of the Resistance” through the jammers. The planet itself was also used to evacuate refugees and wounded during the Shadow War.

JMS IMHO had to avoid using the technology of the Great Machine for two reasons. One story reason and one reputation reason. From a storytelling standpoint, using the Great Machine very frequently would literally be a deus ex machina solution. From a reputation standpoint, had he drawn from that well he’d have been accused of being just like Trek, where fundamental particles and laws of physics are invented and discarded at the whim of the writer.

Anyway, just because the Great Machine is “technology” doesn’t automatically mean it’s “weapons.”

Actually it is “weapons”. In A Voice In The Wilderness Pt.2 the Machine destroyed the unfriendly alien ship quite handily with an energy beam that resembled a Vorlon or Shadow weapon.

I think the difference is that the machine’s weapons are intended for local defense only. It cannot “project” its power that way.

Also, Capt. Sheridan stated one time that he didn’t want to use the Great Machine in the fight to protect B5 (from Earth) because he wanted to keep the Machine’s capabilities secret for a while.

Can someone clear this up for me? What was Earth’s role in the shadow war apart from Babylon 5? Was Clark and the psi-core allied with the Shadows? The war was so vast involving just about everyone how did Earth itself keep out of it?

PS Why does every thread about Star Wars or B-5 have to involve Trek-bashing? Have proper respect for “The First One” (The Cage ) filmed in Dec. 1964.

**

For the most part Earth sat out the Shadow Wars.

**

Clark was put into power by Shadow agents similiar to Mr. Morden, hell, maybe Morden himself was the agent I don’t remember. Shadow vessels use sentient beings as CPUs and were vulnderable to psi attacks. Clark, and presumably members of Psi Corps, provided Clark with telepaths to be used as CPUs instead of mundanes. In exchange for Clark’s cooperation he got to be President of Earth Alliance and had those nifty Omega Destroyers that were a hybrid of Shadow/Earth technology. Kind of like evil White Stars I guess, except tougher. At any rate during Clark’s regime the Earth Alliance became xenophobic and isolationist.

Not everyone in Psi-Corps was happy about situation or even completely aware. If I recall correctly Bester was concerned about his people being used in such a manner and worked to thwart the Shadows.

I’ll give Star Trek credit where credit is due. But the series just started to bite more and more as the years went by. Especially Voyager which by my count had 2-3 good episodes.

Marc

Nope. According to everything I’ve read (and please, look it up on the Lurker’s Guide, which includes hundreds of direct quotes from JMS on every conceivable topic; also, see “The Babylon File,” a very comprehensive episode guide in print), he had always intended for Sinclair to leave and Sheridan take over; it just happened sooner than he’d expected, and he had to write around it, rather than including it naturally in the storyline.

True, this was unexpected, but JMS said he always wanted to bring Lyta (and the actress that played her) back, but she left after the pilot, and he had to throw Talia in there. From what I’ve read, he was glad for the change.

True, this means season four was rushed, but there was nothing in season five that wasn’t part of the orginal story arc.

Also unexpected, and Lochley was the best he could do.

That, and her agent didn’t communicate with her very well. It was a combination of demands, missed deadlines and miscommunications on both parts (from what I’ve heard, JMS was willing to work with her on time off, but her agent sucked).

Esprix

Well, Sci-Fi is going to restart airing the series on Aug 22 or 23 and I’m going to start watching it over the next few months. Just thought I’d drop a note to let you know that this thread part inspired me to watch it(well, I didn’t read the thread, but was inspired by the activity).

I closed my eyes to avoid spoilers in this thread.

You BETTER have. It’s waaaay better without spoilers. Besides, with it on most weeknights, you have no excuse. You’ll survive. The original airing schedule, from I hear, was…erratic. We’re the lucky ones.

Now if I can survive until DragonCon…they just added Mira Furlan to the guest list! Woo-hoo!