Bad Employees - or - Entitlement Ideology?

[msmith537]

*Originally posted by Triss *
From msmith537’s post, quoting myself, above

quote:

Originally posted by Triss
In over ten years, no-one has ever voluntarily quit working for us, it’s too damn good a place to work.

---

And msmith537’s response to my statement:

Well your suspicion is understandable. Especially coming from someone who would blatantly edit their own, and others’ statements, in order to try changing the meaning of the original exchange. :rolleyes: People who are not trustworthy themselves often view others with suspicion and distrust.

You only confirm my suspicion. I can tell from two posts that you are an arrogant jerk. I can only assume that you are also a arrogant jerk at work.

I couldn’t imagine working 5 minutes with you, let alone 10 years.

*Originally posted by Triss *
…And what difference would it make how many people work for us anyhow? People move TO areas in order to find secure, well-paid work in a decent environment. They go back to school or change careers for the same reasons. What’s so unbelievable about that?

Because people change over the course of a decade. People grow out of positions or get bored or circumstances force them to move to other parts of the country. The size of the firm is only relevant because the larger the firm, the greater the probability that SOMEONE will leave on their own for some reason or another.
I’ve heard statements like:

*Originally posted by Triss *
We have no turnover other than those that we’ve had to fire due to attitude problems (theirs) or incompetence (theirs.)

before. Many companies exagerate their turnover by declaring a dispropotionate amount as “involuntary”. Or they may have a strict “up or out” policy where they only keep their “A” players each year. All of a sudden, someone who seemed well liked and productive is gone because they weren’t a “good fit”.

*Originally posted by Triss *
Still, we’re nowhere near as large as SAS Institute. Note their rate of turnover: 4% out of a total of more than 4600 employees in the US.

4% I can believe. 2% I can believe. 0% I have a hard time with.

*Originally posted by Triss *
I invite you to check them out further, and others like them. There are lots on the site linked above. Some of these companies make us look like Nazi pikers or something.

Please. I am very familiar with the Fortune lists. I have to question the validity of the “Best Companies to Work For” list when I see 2 out of the Big-4 accounting firms as well as a number of nvestment banks on it. They may be great places to work in a vague, HR, business school career services, “look at me, I’m working at Goldman Sachs!” way, but they are very stressful, demanding places to work. Long hours, lots of travel, lots of politics, constant pressure to succeed, constant competition from a thousand other people who are just as smart and talented as you.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Triss *
Furthermore, since you still seem confused about the difference between vacation time and sick time: Vacation time is required BY LAW. This is why people must be given the time or paid in lieu. In Ontario (Canada) sick time is a PERK, offered as an incentive, in order to attract good people. Companies don’t SAY you’ve “earned” sick time. It’s possible that if a manager told you this, they were mistaken. Because, really, why would any employer pay you for sick time not taken? It’s only meant to be there if you need it, in order to spare the employee hardship if they happen to need some time off for health reasons.

[/quote

Look, I don’t feel like getting into a debate over labor laws in Canada (or as I call it “Nazi Germany”). And this goes for doreen and TVGuy too. When you work for a company they tell you what their policy is, right? If they say you can take a sick day a month or you have x vacation time a year or however they work time off, it’s spelled out for you right? So why do companies get upset when you actually use these sick days?

Case in point:

*Originally posted by Triss *
judge insisted on scheduling one of my cases for December 24, so I interrupted my vacation to handle that case. Three of my coworkers were supposed to work that day and had cases scheduled…Every one of the three who was scheduled to work called in sick and all three of them have been known to call in sick when their leave request was denied or “just because”. I might have believed one of them was sick, but no way were all three of them sick. In fact, I expected that they would call in sick and had tried to get the supervisor to reschedule their cases to prevent what happened- I had to help the supervisor cover for the three of them. Were they entitled to take a sick day that day? Only if they were sick. If they just wanted the day off, they should have requested it far enough in advance to get approval, like everyone else did.

Maybe they were sick of working for the man. Maybe they didn’t want to have their vacation “interrupted” like you did. Look, I emphasize with you. I too was once motivated, eager and hard working like you. But ask yourself this - Why do YOU have to be the one to give up your vacation time, that you are entitled to and has already been agreed to by the company so that three other guys can take time off? Will you be better compensated at the end of the year? Will you have better opportunities for advancement? Or is the company simply taking advantage of you by using your good work ethic against you?
The whole problem is that the boundaries between work and home are too blurred. “vacation/sick time” was not a problem in my last firm because you could work from home. That also meant they could always reach you at home.

“Hey msmith537! We tried to reach you Friday at 10:00pm but we don’t have your cell phone #!” yes, there’s a reason for that.

or

“hey msmith537, do you want to work at a client site 4 hours from your appartment? It’s near your home town, maybe you can stay with your parents!” Yes, because I’m sure my folks would love to have their adult son living with them for a month because my firm is too cheap to rent me a car or hotel room like every other firm.

and my favorite

“common everyone, team dinner tonight!” well I kinda have plans with my girlfriend. “nonsense! Everyone has to go cause it’ll be fun!”

So if employees seem like they are taking entitlements, it’s probably because the company keeps encroaching into their personal lives and they have to way to push back without being branded as “not a team player”.

Then again, some people are just lazy, shiftless workers.

[Triss]

By posting some of the details of the perks we give our employees, I was trying to show that not every employer thinks of themselves as the man.

Some do everything they can to treat people with the respect they deserve and I am one of those types of employers. I’ve worked for shitty managers myself, so I know firsthand how it feels. As far as I’m concerned, companies that treat their people like shit deservedly end up with a huge turn-over of resentful, hostile people, at the least. At the worst, they have problems with theft, sabotage and things of that nature. It happens all the time. I’ve tried to demonstrate in this thread that IMO, it’s definitely a two-way street. I can only say again that people are not forced to work in these situations.

At the same time, unless you’ve been a manager/owner yourself, you can’t understand the enormous pressures these people are under. They are responsible for many things that the average employee is either blissfully unaware of, or isn’t required to care about. So it doesn’t hurt to cut them some slack once in awhile, they are only human themselves.

Originally posted by Hello Again
We seem to be hitting a US/Canada “sick time” difference?

Could very well be. If the labour laws in the US say that people are entitled to sick/personal time, then they are indeed “entitled” to sick/personal time. If not, then paid sick time or pay in lieu of sick time not taken, is a perk. People confuse entitlements with perks all the time. The laws are there to make sure people have some theoretical recourse to shitty treatment and to set minimum requirements for employers. Perks are there to attract and retain good people.

msith537, I’m sorry for you. I have no doubt that your hostility and bitterness is as obvious to the people you work for as you have made it in here. If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the years, it’s this: The only thing we have any hope of having any control over is ourselves. I’ve noticed that sometimes, we project our attitudes onto other people and they reflect them back to us. Then the blame game gets played endlessly, which no one ever wins. Hope this helps you in some way.

And, JFTR, you could be a little more careful about misattributed quotes. If you can’t be bothered to try to make yourself clear, don’t be surprised if other people can’t be bothered to try to understand you.

[Hello_Again]

I did just want to point out, that if something is a “perk,” yet employees are discouraged from utilizing it, its more like a “mind game” than a “perk.” So saying that employees get sick time as a “perk” then saying that they are jerks for utilizing it, is sort of bogus in my book.

Like, a “perk” of my job is that we have casual dress within the office. Not business casual, but really, jeans-and-t-shirts casual. But imagine that, after a year of following the corporately mandate “no flip flops” dress code, my boss tells me at my annual evaluation that I might be passed up for promotion because I don’t “dress the part.” MIND GAME. Casual dress becomes not a bonus but just one more thing to fck with my head. If you want me to wear 17 pieces of flair, just tell me and I’ll do it. Don’t make me guess which of my “perks” I’m actually allowed to use.
*“Office Space” reference.

[racinchikki]

I have noticed in my retail place of employment that the shitty employees get away with a lot more than the hard workers. They take 40-minute lunch breaks, multiple unannounced cigarette breaks, canoodle with their boyfriends, and flirt with customers instead of doing their job in the checkout lane. They fail to show up for work, and don’t even call in. They show up late and leave early. They never get disciplined.

The employees who have been around a little longer and shown themselves to be competent, like myself and one of my friends (we were both recent Employees of the Month, so I’m not just being full of myself here), get no slack. If we try to call in sick, we get bullied about it - if they could tell us “no, you have to come in anyway” they would.

It makes sense in one way - the ones who aren’t doing the work are completely expendable because it doesn’t matter whether they’re there or not. But at the same time, it is grossly unfair and bad personnel policy.

It pisses me off.

[msmith537]

*Originally posted by Triss *
I’m sorry for you. I have no doubt that your hostility and bitterness is as obvious to the people you work for as you have made it in here. If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the years, it’s this: The only thing we have any hope of having any control over is ourselves. I’ve noticed that sometimes, we project our attitudes onto other people and they reflect them back to us. Then the blame game gets played endlessly, which no one ever wins. Hope this helps you in some way.

And, JFTR, you could be a little more careful about misattributed quotes. If you can’t be bothered to try to make yourself clear, don’t be surprised if other people can’t be bothered to try to understand you.

Save the 360 feedback talk for your employees. I am not on your staff and I am not interested having a performance evaluation session with you.

No employer thinks they are “the man”. They all think that they work for a wonderful company. The people at work are more like friends and family than coworkers or employees. Anyone who works there should feel special just being there. Well the reality is that your coworkers are not your friends and family. If I appear “hostile” it is because I resent the company trying to take the place of these facets of my life.

[Triss]

Originally posted by msmith537
No employer thinks they are “the man”. They all think that they work for a wonderful company. The people at work are more like friends and family than coworkers or employees. Anyone who works there should feel special just being there. Well the reality is that your coworkers are not your friends and family. If I appear “hostile” it is because I resent the company trying to take the place of these facets of my life.

No they don’t think they work for a wonderful company. They think they have a responsibility to their shareholders, their creditors, including banks and suppliers, their clients and their employees. They think they are under huge pressure and they are accountable in ways you may never have considered.

Your perception of some managers undoubtedly has some
basis in reality. I’m not saying it doesn’t. But your perceptions appear to have crossed over the line into paranoia.

It’s laughable to think your employer wants to make you part of his/her family. Any reasonable person, does, however, want to get along with the people they have to work with 40 hours per week or what have you.

If they want to stay in business, be successful and not incidentally, continue to provide jobs, an employer really has no choice but to look at everything from one standpoint: Is it an asset or a liability? Angry, stubborn, intractable, self-pitying and hostile people are a liability to an employer. (Not to mention to themselves.)

Anyway, no one seems to be arguing that some managers are every bit as much of a dumbass as some employees. However I find it very ironic that you’re foolish enough to presume that your employer wants to replace any facet of your life, and yet you’re calling me arrogant. :rolleyes:

[MysteryFellow63427]

Hmm, I was going to tell msmith537 what I really thought, but then I realized this isn’t the Pit.

Oh, and comments like

You only confirm my suspicion. I can tell from two posts that you are an arrogant jerk. I can only assume that you are also a arrogant jerk at work.

DO belong in the Pit, and you’d be well advised to shut your pie-hole when you find yourself tempted to make them in an IMHO thread.

[msmith537]

*Originally posted by Triss *
No they don’t think they work for a wonderful company. They think they have a responsibility to their shareholders, their creditors, including banks and suppliers, their clients and their employees. They think they are under huge pressure and they are accountable in ways you may never have considered.

That’s the way it should be. A job is “work”. Ideally, it’s rewarding and satisfying work but even if it’s not, there is still a job that needs to get done.

*Originally posted by Triss *
Your perception of some managers undoubtedly has some
basis in reality. I’m not saying it doesn’t. But your perceptions appear to have crossed over the line into paranoia.

It’s laughable to think your employer wants to make you part of his/her family. Any reasonable person, does, however, want to get along with the people they have to work with 40 hours per week or what have you.

Many companies like Wal-Mart, Amazon, Nordstroms, Disney, and others have VERY strong corporate cultures. I have worked for a company like this and let me tell you, it is not paranoia.

The company I worked for gave each one if it’s employees a copy of this book called “Built to Last”
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0887307396/104-8261763-1544708?vi=glance

There is an entire chapter dedicated to creating “cult-like companies”.

They have an almost cult-like culture. “Joining these companies reminds me of joining an extremely tight-knit group or society. And if you don’t fit, you’d better not join. If you’re not willing to really buy in and dedicate yourself to what the company stands for, then you’ll probably flounder, feel miserable and out-of-place, and eventually leave-ejected like a virus. You’re either in or you’re out, and there seems to be nomiddle ground. It’s almost cult like.”

Basically, the entire book talks about ideology, indoctrination, fit, elitism, core values and the like and our company seemed to use it as their playbook.

Here’s another book:
Corporate Cults: The Insidious Lure of the All-Consuming Organization
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005NZFY/qid=1046129990/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-8261763-1544708?v=glance&s=books

It’s main point: Corporations can steal your soul. In the 230-page book, Dallas Baptist University professor of management Dave Arnott contends that in the rush to make companies friendlier places to work, they’ve been turned into a replacement for family and community. “It starts with a refrigerator in the lunchroom and ends in a full-blown corporate cult,”

Still sound paranoid?

[doreen]

originally posted by msmith537
When you work for a company they tell you what their policy is, right? If they say you can take a sick day a month or you have x vacation time a year or however they work time off, it’s spelled out for you right? So why do companies get upset when you actually use these sick days?

Well my employer doesn’t, as the policy and the contract clearly state that sick leave is to be used for medical reasons only. So the people who are calling in sick when they just want a day off are violating that policy. I have never heard of an employer who states that " you can take one sick day a month". It makes no sense to even call it a sick day if it can be taken for any reason at all.

Maybe they were sick of working for the man. Maybe they didn’t want to have their vacation “interrupted” like you did. Look, I emphasize with you. I too was once motivated, eager and hard working like you. But ask yourself this - Why do YOU have to be the one to give up your vacation time, that you are entitled to and has already been agreed to by the company so that three other guys can take time off? Will you be better compensated at the end of the year? Will you have better opportunities for advancement? Or is the company simply taking advantage of you by using your good work ethic against you?

You misunderstand. I interrupted my vacation in order to handle my own case. My three coworkers would have called in sick even if no one else was going to be there. And they wouldn’t have had their vacation interrupted, as they hadn’t even requested vacation. They worked on December 23 and they worked on December 26. They simply decided to take off on December 24 without prior approval, without regard for the policy , or the effect it would have on the operation of the agency, or their co-workers. As to why I had to help, it was simply because I was there and no one else was because the *only three people who were supposed to work *didn’t show.

[msmith537]

*Originally posted by neuroman *
DO belong in the Pit, and you’d be well advised to shut your pie-hole when you find yourself tempted to make them in an IMHO thread. **

Here you go tough guy:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=165392

[Triss]

“It starts with a refrigerator in the lunchroom and ends in a full-blown corporate cult”

Yeah, I have to admit, that sounds pretty paranoid to me.
sigh

Just don’t WORK for them then, dude. That’s all.
I’m sorry but it’s hard for me to believe that anyone in their right mind actually CARES if you feel like part of the family or culture. If they’re told to hand out books, then they hand out books. They’ve got enough problems, they’re just trying to get through the day just like you.

Couldn’t some of this shit be ass-covering, or compliance, (rules are different for BFC’s (Big F*cking Corporations) than small private corps.) Some companies make so much money that they can afford to put it into “employee development”. It’s a tax-write off for them, they get to look like heroes, and maybe the employees get some benefit out of it too. There are government incentive programs that employers get for training, new hires, etc. Surely some of that could fall into that type of category?

I mean, I don’t know for sure, but it just seems really unlikely that your manager wants to be an intimate part of your life, my friend.

Not to say that there are NO managers that could get all gung-ho or caught up in the culture thing. Just as there may be some employees that suck it right up. Look, dumbasses come in all shapes and sizes. How do you think Amway survives?

I haven’t read those books so can’t really comment on what’s in them. But don’t forget, that the people that write these books are trying to make a living too. It is possible that they could be just a tiny bit sensationalized.

[Guinastasia]

Also-what happens if that person takes off his “sick” day, and then gets sick a week later?

Screwed the pooch on that one.

(Where my mom works, you build up your sick days)

[lezlers]

I’m sorry, but this post just isn’t making sense to me. There’s just got to be more to the story…

*Originally posted by Thea Logica *
**
For some reason, in this town, managers actually seem to favor workers with no work ethic, who take unauthorized breaks, make personal phone calls to an excessive degree, who do their nails instead of their jobs, who make a regular practice of being rude to customers and deliberately uncooperative with coworkers. **

Okay, you haven’t totally lost me yet, although it seems highly suspicous. Why would they do this? Why would they favor a crappy worker over a good one? It’s just not logical. Are the crappy workers buddy buddy with the management? That would make a little more sense. For the management to favor a crappy worker for the sake of them being a crappy worker is a concept I just can’t imagine. And I’ve worked with a lot of crappy workers. And crappy managers.

**A generally bad worker who leaves their work station for a half hour at a time to smoke cigarettes is not penalized, but a good worker who asks a coworker to cover for them so they can go get water to take an aspirin because they have a headache will be written up for “abandoning their work station.” **

I’ve got to ask if there’s more to the story again. Are the managers aware of the smokers leaving without permission for a half hour at a time? It could be that they just don’t know, and they actually saw your mother leave. If it all actually played out the way you said it did (and i’m sorry, i’m not trying to be disrespectful, I just can’t believe this, and i’m trying) i’m sure she could go to some higher ups and complain. There’s always a bigger fish and this is obviously extremely unfair treatment. What if she had to go to the bathroom? Would she just have to go in the middle of the casino floor? Comon.

** Someone with an actual work ethic is generally regarded as a troublemaker, and if they aren’t let go during their probationary period, or, just let go with no explanation (at will employment state- whoopee), their bosses and cow orkers deliberately make their jobs and lives miserable in an attempt to force them to quit.**

Okay. Kiss up, maybe. But usually managers love kiss asses, so I can’t really see that one either. Maybe they’re afraid the hard worker will make them look bad? Okay, this one I can vaugely grasp.

Also, many, if not most employers regard family obligations as recreational activities.

Yeah, been there. I’m with you on this one.

** I’ve seen many cases where a manager who knew a particular employee had a sick child or elderly relative to care for knowingly change that person’s schedule so that they would not be able to be home at a time when the spouse or other family member was working, thus making it necessary to hire professional caregivers, at an expense that caused financial hardship. **

Annnnnnd you’ve lost me. Come on. This sounds a little suspicous and a lotparanoid to me. If you’re in an at-will state, which you mentioned you were in your post, then the employer could just fire a worker if they didn’t want them there. Knowing this, forcing them out couldn’t be a motivation. So then, what possible motivation could an employer have to keep Emma Employee away from her sick, dying grandma, while at the same time putting her into the poor house? Were they just doing it for shits and giggles? Do they have a big dartboard up in the office with their non-smoking employees pictures on them, where they through darts for fun and whoever they hit is who’s life they’re going to ruin that week?

And let’s not even talk about managers who regard religious obligations as recreational activities, scheduling Catholics to work on holy days of obligation that when the day would normally be a scheduled day off, or refusing to allow the person the time off necessary to attend religious services, or putting someone who worked odd shifts to work on little or no sleep because they needed to attend a religious service at a time when they would normally be asleep. (I’m just using this as an example because it happens to me on a regular basis. It happens to people of all religious stripes.)

Sigh Why would a manager intentionally schedule you where they knew you would have to sleep? Do you really think they’re going over the schedule and thinking to themselves “hmm…Emma Employee is attending a religious service on such and such day. I know, because she asked for it off and there’s no WAY we were gonna let her get away with that! And what NERVE she has to even ask! I’ll show her. I KNOW she’ll be attending service at such and such time which means if I schedule her to come in 2 hours later, knowing she’s getting off of her previous shift 4 hours before that, then she’d be forced to work on NO sleep!! Yes!” :rolleyes: If they didn’t want you there, they’d fire you. Again, I don’t think the whole story has come out.

I’m sorry, I just couldn’t resist. I read the whole thread and just couldn’t stop thinking about this particular post, so I thought I’d challenge it.

This sort of practice may not turn a good worker into a bad one, but does create resentment which would lead to an employee to not do their jobs as well as they would if they were treated with respect by their employers.

I think busting my ass to do the best job I can for my employer entitles me to a good paycheck, and to have my family and religious obligations obligations respected. If it means working on a normal day off in order to have the Feast of the Assumption off so I can attend church, I’m willing to do that, but a lot of employers just are not willing to bend.

The sad thing is, it’s usually the good, hard-working employees who are subjected to this kind of treatment. The bad, rude, lazy and uncooperative workers can usually get any days off they want, or at least are not penalized for calling off sick so they can get their hair and nails done because they have a hot date. **
[/QUOTE]

[lezlers]

oh crap. I’m sorry, after “I’d challenge it” my post should’ve ended. Knew I should’ve previewed!! My apologies.

Again, everything after " I thought I’d challenge it" isn’t me. It’s the rest of Thea’s post…

sorry

[msmith537]

Originally posted by Triss
I haven’t read those books so can’t really comment on what’s in them. But don’t forget, that the people that write these books are trying to make a living too. It is possible that they could be just a tiny bit sensationalized. **

Unless you’ve seen it first hand, I admit it’s pretty unbelievable. The company I worked for was pretty much exactly as described in many of these books (not surprising since the company handed out the book in the first place). In fact, it has a reputation in its industry (ecommerce consulting) for being somewhat “cultish”.

Examples:
-“Core values” posters on every wall
-Constant exercisies designed to emphasize core values
-Public ridicule for violating the rules (wearing “dunce” caps or clocks, 1$ fines, etc)
-Every meeting starts/ends with a “team cheer” (some combination of stomping and clapping)
-My manager invited the entire project team to her weding (strikes me as odd since I only knew her 4 weeks)
-Mandatory team events like going over to someones corporate housing after work to watch videos
-Encouragement of employees to date/marry
-HR staff makes comments like “we want people who are willing to drink the coolaid” (reference to Jim Jones cult)
-creating demigods out of the CEO/executive officers (“Steve is sooo brilliant”)
-fake headhunter calls to test your loyalty
-and of course, you have the overriding do whatever it take to get the job done at any cost attitude that results in working 100 hours a week which pretty much crowds out any personal time.

Now you said “don’t work at those companies” and I agree with that. IF you can discover that during the interview process.

Originally posted by Triss
I mean, I don’t know for sure, but it just seems really unlikely that your manager wants to be an intimate part of your life, my friend.

It’s not that the management wants to be an intimate part of your life. They want your life (family, hobbies, etc) to always come secondary to the company. Ideally, if they can tie those things you love to the company, it strengthens the bond between you. How much better is it if they don’t have to worry about such nuisances as a worker who isn’t there when they need them? How much money can the company save if people are there working for an almost religeous cause instead of just money?

Originally posted by Triss
I’m sorry but it’s hard for me to believe that anyone in their right mind actually CARES if you feel like part of the family or culture.

I agree. But i suspect that some of my managers at this company were not in their right mind.

Fortunately, most of my jobs have been of the “work hard, but it’s just work” variety.

[Cat_Whisperer]

**Originally posted by msmith537:

Look, I don’t feel like getting into a debate over labor laws in Canada (or as I call it “Nazi Germany”)

msmith537**, would you please explain this comment?

[Czarcasm]

I’m sending this whole abusive mess to the BBQ Pit. I thought that the lot of you knew how to behave in IMHO, but apparently I was mistaken.

[TVeblen]

Moderator’s note:

***msmith537 wrote:

You only confirm my suspicion. I can tell from two posts that you are an arrogant jerk. I can only assume that you are also a arrogant jerk at work.

---

I can tell from that comment alone that you won’t be posting here if you don’t shape up immediately. Adding your gratuitious and nasty crack comparing Canada to Nazi Germany just lessens your chances of sticking around.

Understand this, msmith, you will not hurl personal insults in IMHO and you will not troll, i.e. use deliberately inflammatory language just to get a reaction. If you can’t conduct yourself reasonably you will be banned.

This is an official warning, and be assured the rest of the staff will be watching to make sure you comply.

TVeblen,
for the SDMB

[Will_Repair]

*Originally posted by delphica *
**If I had a work-related crystal ball, this would be the first thing on my list to find out about potential employees. I’ve never mastered any way of figuring this out from an interview (anyone have any tips?) **

If they have a cellphone on their belt during the interview ask if it’s turned on.

[pilot141]

Wow - my first Pit post!

Since this started in IMHO, I’m going to make an IMHO comment:

This thread WAS in IMHO when I started reading it. Between a refill on my beverage of choice (ahem) and continuing on to the second page, I read Czarcasm 's post and actually thought “Wow. I wonder when that will happen.”

Only to scroll up and find out that I am now IN the PIT with this thread! OK then…ahhhh, I’m not really pissed at anybody.

But you all just wait!