Bad Moderation in "Hamas Attacks Israel" MPSIMS thread

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In post 3913 of this thread, Crane drops this turd (emphasis added):

The issue is that Israel is engaged in the form of local colonialism employed by Nazi Germany . Though less kind than the Waffen SS, Israel seeks the same ends. That is bound to arouse resistance by those being colonized.

In the previous few threads, he had been arguing with some Jewish posters, claiming that Israel is a settler colonialist State, attempting to commit ethnic cleansing in Palestine in order to gain more living space for Jews. This is IMO an entirely reasonable view and certainly not one that should be considered intrinsically anti-Semitic.

But the last sentence can’t be construed as anything other than blatantly anti-Semitic trolling. In the first place, it’s objectively untrue. Anyone remotely familiar with the history of the Waffen SS knows they routinely committed atrocities far greater than anything Israel has even been accused of doing in this war. I’m certainly not trying to defend Israel’s conduct, but this is just blood libel, obviously calculated to personally offend the Jews he was speaking with.

When called on it, he doubled down, repeatedly clarifying that he was, in fact, claiming that the Nazis were “much more kind and considerate” than the IDF. In support of this, he posted two links that were both to academic history sites discussing Nazi Germany, neither of which even mentioned Israel at all. One of them was actually from the Holocaust Museum, a nice Jew-baiting touch.

For multiple posts of this nature, IN MPSIMS, he was…warned that if he kept doing it, he might be…banned from that particular thread?! Which he responded to exactly like a classroom bully who knows he’s gotten away with something, offering a smarmy and obviously insincere “apology” and then expecting everyone else to drop the subject. He continued this “I’m not touching you” horseshit in the Pit, saying “The issue was resolved with the Mods. If there is something remaining, take it up with them.”

So here I am. I think puzzlegal is a great moderator, but she blew this one. That level of blatant anti-Semitic trolling in MPSIMS is deserving of much harsher moderation, and I respectfully request that the Modloop reconsider and issue, at the very least, a topic ban.

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I just wanted to say I support the above post.

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I agree, and would have likely started a similar thread to this one myself if I wasn’t so pessimistic about the possibility that anything will be done.

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In my experience, within the context of discussing the Israel-Hamas war “literally worse than Hitler” is shocking but commonplace hyperbole. Comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany (and criticism of that comparison) are part of mainstream political discourse. You can draw a red line in the sand, but it takes initiative.

~Max

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At least he should be on double secret probation, with at least a brief suspension if he pulls this crap again.

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I, too, support the position of the thread.

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I have been extremely critical of IDF’s actions in this war. I think that multiple people in the IDF and in Israel’s government should be imprisoned and tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

But I also think it’s crucial to distinguish between legitimate criticism of Israel, and antisemitic baiting; and Crane’s posts fall into the latter category. He should be held to account.

Honestly, that thread should probably be in Great Debates, and be held to the standards of that forum. And posters who regularly engage in appalling dehumanizing rhetoric about Palestinians should be held to account for their words as well.

The board should be better than that.

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I also thought of this at first. And if they’d just said that Israel was worse than the Nazis, I could agree it was hyperbole. But specifically saying that Israel is less kind than the SS is not that. And then subsequent posts make it clear this wasn’t a mistake: he really was arguing the SS was more kind. So no typing “less” when they meant “more,” and no defense that they were exaggerating.

I think you can draw a line between angry hyperbole and actual downplaying of the Holocaust.

Besides, this was clearly already moddable, as puzzlegal did mod them. The only question is the response level. And the OP makes a compelling case.

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I have little to add but my support for the OP’s position.

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But the Waffen SS specifically, I assumed may have been related to the clean Wermacht myth.

~Max

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Jesus Fucking Christ, you do not need to overthink this! He literally said the waffen ss was “kind.” Kinder than the IDF at any rate. You don’t even need to look at the holocaust to realize what bullshit this is. Look at the civilians Sepp Dietrich massacred in France after D-day if you have a strong stomach.

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One can be a hyperbolic dick about the barbaric activities of an organization, like the IOF, largely composed of Jews, without it being antisemitism. Not every comparison to the Nazis or the Holocaust is about the entisemitism aspect. Sometimes they’re just a marker for barbarism and cruelty.

One can also use the analogy for trolling without actually being antisemitic.

I do know I’ve been called an antisemite enough times in these Israel threads to take all accusations of antisemitism with a Dead Sea-sized pinch of salt. Basically, pro-Israel posters have cried “Wolf!” so much (on me, on B_Bear, on other posters I know are coming at this from a different place than antisemitism) that it would take more than someone getting worked up about IOF atrocities for me to favour their gloss.

So for Crane? Going to need more receipts than just those posts. He would need to actually be saying something negative about Jews as a group, not just the activities of the IOF or analogies to other génocidaires, however grossly wrong they are in relation to historic fact.

Was he trolling for reaction? I’d say yes, and he was modded for it.

Like that’s ever going to happen. Islamophobia is the one prejudice this Board is still largely fine and dandy with - look at the Muhammad cartoon threads or any of the “All Palestinians are Hamas” posts in Gaza ones.

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@MrDibble I don’t engage on that topic as much as you do. But I have been called antisemitic when I was not over this topic. And I was prepared when I first saw this thread and glanced at the OP.

But then I read it more carefully. The poster in question engaged in Holocaust denial when they claimed that any part of the SS was kind to Jewish people. That’s contrary to lived reality of Jewish people, and a refusal to listen when told otherwise.

I do not think it is improper to refer to that as antisemitism. Maybe the poster in general isn’t antisemitic, but that doesn’t mean this denial isn’t.

As for the use of hyperbole? I still say that is precluded by their attempts to justify the words they used as being literally true. You can’t argue that the Nazis “really were more kind and considerate” and then say you were just exaggerating. when you said that.

I see it similar as when someone tries to portray slave owners as having been kind to their slaves. I’m pretty sure people wouldn’t balk at calling that racism.

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Calling the IOF “less kind” is not the same as saying the SS were kind. Just that the IOF are that much worse. Which I agree with everyone else is wrong, but is not the same thing as the words everyone else is putting in Crane’s mouth.

Well, if all everyone is refering to is that strawman, I guess he’s not any kind of antisemite, then. Since he never called the SS kind.

You present this as a quote, but that was Smapti’s sarcastic wording, not Crane’s. Crane did riff off the idea behind it in response, but again, only to say people might consider how much worse the IOF were being (which, it should not need repeating, they are clearly not)

No, it’s often mere cluelessness. It’s the result of systemic racism, but is just gauche ignorance in-and-of itself. Now, such defences often go hand-in-hand with racism, but you need more tells than just that one.

Look, my feeling is - once you believe, as I do, that both the Nazis and IOF are génocidaires, expressing Shock! and Horror! that anyone even dare make the comparison or say someone is worse than the Nazis just starts seeming like sowing FUD of a different kind. There are open genocide denialists on this board. I don’t think Crane is actually one of them. A few pro-Israel posters definitely are (or were, some may have “come around” since)

Like I said before, “antisemite” has lost all sting for me through its blatant abuse by our pro-Israel posters. I’d need actual ZOG-level posting from a long-term poster before I believe it.

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Oh, I hate arguments of that form. Yes, “antisemite” has been abused to hell and back by many advocates of Israel’s horrific policies. But the idea needs to keep its sharp edges.

@Crane deliberately compared Israel to Nazis and said they were worse than Nazis. If a teenager made that post, I’d chalk it up to pig ignorance. But when a grownup makes it? Especially a grownup who was alive during World War 2? I can’t see that as anything other than deliberately tweaking Jews. It’s not antisemitic in the sense that it directly makes bad generalizations about Jews, but it’s antisemitic in the sense that its intention is to piss Jews off.

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Bit torn here. I absolutely believe that the Israeli government (as distinct from the entirety of Israel, or its general population, or Jews overall) are engaged in deliberate genocide in Gaza. And if any group ought to know about the evils of genocide, it’s Israelis.

But “less kind than the Waffen SS” - whether it’s specifically antisemitic or not - is at best extreme hyperbole and at most staggering offensive and in poor taste.

Which is to say that I think puzzlegal got it right in that thread. But I acknowledge that this is a view not informed by a wider totality of Crane’s posts.

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I read it as trolling, not as antisemitism. And yes, i read it as saying the IDF is worse than the Nazis, not that the Nazis were kind. Which i think is untrue, and kinda a stupid thing to say, but not necessarily antisemitic.

A handful of other details:

  • I can thread ban a poster on my own. A topic ban requires a discussion in the mod loop.
  • I prefer to err towards under-moderation, not over-moderation.
  • I am still recovering from covid and don’t entirely trust my judgement.
  • This is a topic on which people have extremely strong feelings. I have IRL friends with extremely strong feeling on both sides of this topic, and navigating that is sometimes delicate, too. I feel that slamming people for how they express those feelings is not the ideal response.
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I agree - perhaps I should be more specific - accusations of antisemitism on this board and in public discourse have lost their sting.

Actual antisemitism remains as abhorrent as it always has been.

That he did.

I can see it as tweaking Zionists/fervent pro-Israelis without it being intentionally about pissing off Jews in general.

Think of any offended non-Zionist Jews as, you know, what’s that expression, comes up all the time in the context of Palestinians … I know - “collateral damage”.

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Yeah, fuck that dude!

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I agree with all of that. Also basically what @puzzlegal posted as well.