Bad tippers.

[Brown_Eyed_Girl]

@levdrakon

I’ve lived in Europe and the food servers are perfunctory at best. You might find a friendly waiter but it’s only because that particular waiter happens to be in a good mood and likes you. There are a lot of Americans who would probably be okay with that, but I bet there’d be a lot of griping about how the price went up and the service became… hmm… more matter of fact, let’s say.

I see what you’re saying. As I think about all the interactions I have with people who work with the public, the vast majority of them are perfunctory. Bank teller: polite, but matter of fact. Guy at the tire store: same. Tech support guy for my cell provider: foreign; unable to understand.

Come to think of it, the people who are most personable with me are the guys I see pretty consistently at the cafe I frequent. They make more than minimum wage, and I usually forget to throw tips in the jar, but I know they aren’t working for their tips. They’re personal because we have regular interactions, I’m a regular customer, not because I’m throwing bones to hungry dogs. There’s comfort in familiarity; it relaxes both customers and service workers.

I work in retail, I am friendly, polite, and attentive to our customers. I’m paid to do that. On occasion, an interaction will become a little friendlier, more personable, and presumably more uplifting for that customer. Not because I’m being tipped, but because it’s genuine.

You’re probably right that some interactions will become more perfunctory, but I think that’s to be expected as it is in every other service job. The difference is when you find workers, in whatever service job, that truly enjoy interacting with people and that’s why they are in service to begin with. The absence of the arbitrary reward system that is tipping is not going turn those folks into automatons, I can assure you. But maybe it will weed out folks that aren’t suited for that type of work.

[Dangerosa]

I didn’t know this. Waiters are entitled to the federal minimum wage. I’m willing to bet it doesn’t always happen, but they are legally entitled to the minimum wage - and getting them there isn’t the customer’s responsibility.

http://www.dol.gov/wb/faq26.htm

Question: Is it legal for waiters and waitresses to be paid below the minimum wage?

Answer: According to the Fair Labor Standards Act, tipped employees are individuals engaged in occupations in which they customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips. The employer may consider tips as part of wages, but the employer must pay at least $2.13 an hour in direct wages.

An employer may credit a portion of a tipped employee’s tips against the federal minimum wage of $6.55 per hour effective July 24, 2008. An employer must pay at least $2.13 per hour. ** However, if an employee’s tips combined with the employer’s wage of $2.13 per hour do not equal the hourly minimum wage, the employer is required to make up the difference.**

The employer who elects to use the tip credit provision must inform the employee in advance and must be able to show that the employee receives at least the applicable minimum wage (see above) when direct wages and the tip credit allowance are combined. If an employee’s tips combined with the employer’s direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference. Also, employees must retain all of their tips, except to the extent that they participate in a valid tip pooling or sharing arrangement.

[Reply]

@Brown_Eyed_Girl

The difference is when you find workers, in whatever service job, that truly enjoy interacting with people and that’s why they are in service to begin with. The absence of the arbitrary reward system that is tipping is not going turn those folks into automatons, I can assure you. But maybe it will weed out folks that aren’t suited for that type of work.

Seconding. I loved my gigs at Sony Online and Starbucks precisely because they let me interact with people. That’s the best reward. And the best punishment – I really took it to heart when I let customers down. In fact, I was annoyed with the Starbucks tip jar – one because it’s pooled across all baristas and all shifts in that store, making it pointless as an incentive, and two because it cheapened something I did genuinely, reducing human-human interaction to a monetary value of 50 cents a pop. I didn’t mind the extra $1-$2/hr, to be sure, but I rather it’d come from corporate than customers. I want my happy customers to know that I treated them well because I like them, or because I’m proud of my job, or both, not because I’m being motivated by that dumb jar in front of me.

I’m sure there are people who don’t think like that, who are in it only because of the money or some other benefit, but as Brown Eyed Girl suggested, maybe they’d just be better in other careers – for both their sake and their customers’.

[Reply]

Gack, double-post.

[Rebo]

What I don’t understand is - if you’re willing to pay $1.50 on a $10.00 tab - what’s it to you to pay another 50 cents? If you can afford to eat out, how much more is the freakin’ 5% to you, and how much more does it mean to the minimum wage server? It matters a lot to the server in the long run.

Support your server! It could be my son.

[levdrakon]

@Reply

I’m sure there are people who don’t think like that, who are in it only because of the money or some other benefit, but as Brown Eyed Girl suggested, maybe they’d just be better in other careers – for both their sake and their customers’.

The turn over rate in the restaurant industry is humongous. Good luck finding your primo employees who love people and hate earning money. I know it’s a dream, but hey, we can all dream.

[Polerius]

First off, I should say that, since this is the system that is in place in the US, I do tip.

However, the system is stupid and I wish they’d just have menus that include both taxes and tip. What do I care how much of my money is going to the restaurant owner, how much to the IRS, and how much is going to the waiter?

Taken to its extreme, the current system would have separate fees for each meal: the hostess’ fee, the chef’s fee, the cleaning staff’s fee, the waiter’s fee (tip), the cost of electricity to run the place (proportional to the time you spent there), your share of the rent (proportional to the time you spent there), the tax, and finally, the base cost of the meal.

If you like the way the hostess treated you, more tip for her. If you didn’t like your food, less tip for the chef. If your table and the overall environment were clean, more tip for the cleaning staff, etc.

This way you could optimally spend your money, with the maximum effect on ensuring a better experience next time. Also, you would know exactly how your money is being spent on different cost sources (tax, electricity, rent, cost of food).

The thing is, I don’t want all this freedom, or all this knowledge about where my money goes.

For the same reason that I don’t need to have control of how much of my money the hostess, the chef, the cleaning staff, etc, I also don’t need to have control over how much of the money I spend on a meal goes to the waiter. If the service from any of these people is bad, I’ll just not go to that restaurant any more. That’s how quality of service is ensured for the rest of the staff (hostess, chef, cleaning staff, etc), so why shouldn’t it work for the waiters?

Also, for the same reason that I don’t need to know exactly how much of my money is going to pay for electricity, rent, food, etc, I also don’t need to know how much of it goes to tax. Just tell me how much that lasagna is going to cost me, and you deal with how to allocate that to the different cost sources.

[gurujulp]

@Polerius

First off, I should say that, since this is the system that is in place in the US, I do tip.

However, the system is stupid and I wish they’d just have menus that include both taxes and tip. What do I care how much of my money is going to the restaurant owner, how much to the IRS, and how much is going to the waiter?

Taken to its extreme, the current system would have separate fees for each meal: the hostess’ fee, the chef’s fee, the cleaning staff’s fee, the waiter’s fee (tip), the cost of electricity to run the place (proportional to the time you spent there), your share of the rent (proportional to the time you spent there), the tax, and finally, the base cost of the meal.

If you like the way the hostess treated you, more tip for her. If you didn’t like your food, less tip for the chef. If your table and the overall environment were clean, more tip for the cleaning staff, etc.

This way you could optimally spend your money, with the maximum effect on ensuring a better experience next time. Also, you would know exactly how your money is being spent on different cost sources (tax, electricity, rent, cost of food).

The thing is, I don’t want all this freedom, or all this knowledge about where my money goes.

For the same reason that I don’t need to have control of how much of my money the hostess, the chef, the cleaning staff, etc, I also don’t need to have control over how much of the money I spend on a meal goes to the waiter. If the service from any of these people is bad, I’ll just not go to that restaurant any more. That’s how quality of service is ensured for the rest of the staff (hostess, chef, cleaning staff, etc), so why shouldn’t it work for the waiters?

Also, for the same reason that I don’t need to know exactly how much of my money is going to pay for electricity, rent, food, etc, I also don’t need to know how much of it goes to tax. Just tell me how much that lasagna is going to cost me, and you deal with how to allocate that to the different cost sources.

I think this post obviates the need for any other, save ‘me too!’

Well done.

[Polerius]

My reactions to some of the posts in this thread:

[ul]
[li]Conflicting statements on the value, to waiters, of tipping[/li]We hear
[LIST]
[li] “You need to tip handsomely because the waiters barely make ends meet”[/li] [li]“Waiters don’t want tipping abolished, because they make such good money from it”[/li] [/ul]
So, which is it?
[li]Conflicting statements on the rationale, the basis, of how much should be tipped [/li]
Should we tip based on the waiter’s need or based on the amount of work they did?
[ul]
[li] “I busted my ass getting all those plates and drinks”[/li] [/ul]
You could have busted your ass on the same number of drinks and plates, but in one case the total could be $80 and in another case it could be $120.

If it is the amount of work that matters, then the tip should not be based on the total bill amount.

If the tip should be based on the total bill amount, then there is no reason to bring up how much how much work you did.
[li]I find it funny that some people in this thread claimed that it’s “amazing” how many people don’t know that it’s customary to tip 20%.[/li]
When the majority of the tipping population doesn’t know that it’s “customary”, then, by definition it’s not customary.

Even if all 20-30 year-olds accept 20%, they are not the majority of tipping population, so they do not get to define what is “customary”.
[li]Does service suffer for large parties, given that most restaurants add a mandatory tip?[/li]
For the people who claim that service would suffer if the tip was included in the price and did not depend on the customer, because the waiters would not have an incentive to be good at their job, how do you explain the fact that even when serving large parties, the service is pretty much the same as always and doesn’t degenerate into laziness or rudeness on the part of the waiter. (at least in my experience)
[li] For proponents of the tipping culture, would you support tipping in other cases, like nurses, bank tellers, your kid’s teachers, your doctor, etc?[/li]
If not why not? These are all service professions, and most likely little Timmy would get much better attention if the teacher thought they may get a great tip at the end of the semester.

Why is waiting on tables the one service profession that is most structured around tips?
[/LIST]

[levdrakon]

I think it’s funny how I have to suck off my doctor to get him to give me a prescription for my goddamned cold we both know I have and I just want a fucking prescription for what we both fucking know I want! $100 for that?

Oh, but waiters should only get minimum wage. Whatever.

What you want to pay for something and what you do pay for something, sometimes doesn’t equal in fantasy world.

[ShibbOleth]

@Dangerosa

I didn’t know this. Waiters are entitled to the federal minimum wage. I’m willing to bet it doesn’t always happen, but they are legally entitled to the minimum wage - and getting them there isn’t the customer’s responsibility.

You must have missed it when I posted it on the second page of this thread.

[ShibbOleth]

@levdrakon

I think it’s funny how I have to suck off my doctor to get him to give me a prescription for my goddamned cold we both know I have and I just want a fucking prescription for what we both fucking know I want! $100 for that?

You go to the doctor for a cold? Really? Why? What does he prescribe? I thought that colds were incurable.

[levdrakon]

@ShibbOleth

You go to the doctor for a cold? Really? Why? What does he prescribe? I thought that colds were incurable.

My point is whenever I go to the doctor (which I rarely do) it’s $100. Cold. Hang nail. Excessive boogers. It’s $100 a visit. Do I go to the doctor for a cold? Well, not necessarily, but if I need a med I can’t get OTC, I kinda gotta go to the doc. $100. Antibiotics tend to get over prescribed, but sometimes you actually do need antibiotics or other medicines.

Yes, yes, I know Dopers don’t need medicine. Everyone knows that. But some humans do.

[Backcountry_Medic]

@Polerius

The thing is, I don’t want all this freedom, or all this knowledge about where my money goes.

For the same reason that I don’t need to have control of how much of my money the hostess, the chef, the cleaning staff, etc, I also don’t need to have control over how much of the money I spend on a meal goes to the waiter. If the service from any of these people is bad, I’ll just not go to that restaurant any more. That’s how quality of service is ensured for the rest of the staff (hostess, chef, cleaning staff, etc), so why shouldn’t it work for the waiters?

This is the most basic root of all tipping problems. What I expect at a restaurant is no different from what I expect from any other business, I go intending to purchase a good and/or a service, with my eyes open to the fact that sometimes the service is exceptional, sometimes just good, sometimes mediocre and sometimes downright horrendous. This holds true for getting my oil changed, buying nails at home depot, having the butcher cut me a steak, meeting with my accountant or having some photos developed. If the service in any of those transactions is truly abominable, I take my complaint to the only person with the power and caring to actually rectify it- their boss.

Why do I suddenly become the impotent boss of the waitstaff at every single restaurant I choose to dine at? Without the power to actually reprimand people via any means except their paycheck? Why do some people love that responsibility so much? Why do waiters put up with a system like that?

Like was said above, how do I even know if my 10% “punishment” tip for bad service even gets seen as such? Most likely they just think I’m another cheap-ass. So what then? Is my only option to tip 0% just to prove my point? If my fiance and I are being low maintenance while the server is busy helping 3 big tops more, should we tip less, since she’s trying to maximize her tips on the tables with the biggest bills?

Like most others, I disagree with the commission idea- Please don’t make dinner time another sell-up scheme, where the waitstaff has a vested interest in sucking my wallet dry. I don’t want that kind of stress while I’m eating my fajitas. Instead, go the total opposite way: Pay your staff a flat, reasonable, living wage, add it to the cost of the meal and you and your waiters can hash out what quality of work is expected for whatever you’re paying. I would go out of my way and overpay to support a restaurant like that. If your staff treats people like shit repeatedly and you do nothing about it, I’m sure the market will fix you rather quickly.

I work in an ER, where my pay is based on nothing more than hours worked. Some days I make my usually $300 when I should have only made $100, some days I make my $300 when I should have made $600, all I can hope for is that the bad days don’t outnumber the good. No one chooses us over another hospital for our better service (we’re the only one for several hours). In reality, we could probably treat most of our patients worse- they don’t have anywhere else to go- but I still am expected to treat all of the patients we see courteously and professionally, if not outright friendly. If I have poor customer service skills, you can be sure that I’ll be hearing about it from my boss, which might affect my paycheck every bit as much as tips do.

Do people honestly think that a similar pay by hour system will destroy the quality of waiters? And if you say yes to that, how would you say the current system does for you in regards to waiter quality?

[Cyberhwk]

@Rebo

What I don’t understand is - if you’re willing to pay $1.50 on a $10.00 tab - what’s it to you to pay another 50 cents? If you can afford to eat out, how much more is the freakin’ 5% to you, and how much more does it mean to the minimum wage server? It matters a lot to the server in the long run.

Support your server! It could be my son.

That’s my thinking a lot of the time too. The difference between a 15% and a 20%+ tip a lot of time ends up being a buck or two. If an extra $2 is all it takes to turn a average tip into a very good tip, I’ve wasted $2 on dumber things.

[Dangerosa]

@ShibbOleth

You must have missed it when I posted it on the second page of this thread.

Obviously, sorry… sometimes my brain loses things. Car keys, socks, posts back on page two…

[ColdPhoenix]

I don’t think you should always pay a percentage of the bill. My wife and I went out with 3 other couples to a restaurant last month. We were there for a couple of hours, and the bill came to £550. Standard tip here is 12% (tends to be added to the bill, you can pay less or more if you want) so with tip we paid £615 or so. We didn’t really think about it much as we’d drank quite a bit of wine but afterwards we thought, £65 (about $90) is a lot of money for a couple of hours work. And she had other tables to earn money from. Also, while I know that waitresses work hard, they haven’t invested much time in training and I think it’s unfair if they earn that much while some doctors earn less.

I think we should have paid less and in future similar circumstances, I will.

[An_Gadai]

@Brown_Eyed_Girl

Presumably book store employees make more than $2.13/hr.

In my bookstore I’m paid the same or a little bit above what standard waiting staff are paid here. Tipping is still done, although not obligatory. I’ve only ever been tipped once in over 12 years working there, $5 for getting 40 books together for a customer.

American tourists here have a reputation for being lousy tippers. I think they hear that it is not customary to tip here so don’t bother. It’s not obligatory as I say but it is somewhat expected when you are provided with excellent service in certain situations.

[Gary_Robson]

@Brown_Eyed_Girl

Presumably book store employees make more than $2.13/hr.

You need to read the thread before making statements like that. As I’ve mentioned several times in this discussion, servers in Montana must be paid the state minimum wage (which is higher than the Federal mininum) in addition to any tips they may receive.

Therefore, yes, the kid at the coffee shop makes the same as the base everywhere else. Actually, my employees make more than minimum wage, but when my kids started there, they made less (you’re allowed to pay family members less, and they were just learning).

[Brown_Eyed_Girl]

@An_Gadai

In my bookstore I’m paid the same or a little bit above what standard waiting staff are paid here. Tipping is still done, although not obligatory. I’ve only ever been tipped once in over 12 years working there, $5 for getting 40 books together for a customer.

Am I to understand that waiters make more than book store employees, based on tips? I don’t necessarily see anything wrong with that, except for the fact that, as I noted earlier, the expectation of tipping defies its original purpose. The tip you received is, however, exactly what a tip should be: a consideration above and beyond normal compensation that represents appreciation for exceptional service.

American tourists here have a reputation for being lousy tippers. I think they hear that it is not customary to tip here so don’t bother. It’s not obligatory as I say but it is somewhat expected when you are provided with excellent service in certain situations.

It’s funny. I don’t know about Irish specifically, but the reputation around here is that foreigners are generally lousy tippers as well. I do wonder why it is so difficult for people having enough brains to travel outside their own country to learn the culture and acceptable behavior relative to things they’ll actually be doing in the host country. Seriously. If you’re going to eat in a restaurant on your trip, at least figure out the tipping custom in advance. Of course, I don’t mean to direct this at foreign travelers to the US, but I’m including Americans in this little rant.