Any server should be content with that.
I’d rather someone come in and get a 15% tip out of it. Doesn’t mean I can’t think you’re cheap. Like I said before, I don’t care if I know I haven’t done my best with a table and they leave me 14 or 15%. But when I bust my ass for a table (which I truly, honestly, aim to do for every table) and they leave 15%, like I said- cheap.
When it comes to 10%, stay home. I could be taking the time I’m wasting on you and spending it on my other tables, which would easily make up that 10%.
Yup. This is pretty crucial to understanding the whole issue. I don’t think people realize how much other crap servers have to do in addition to waiting their tables. You make $30 an hour for a couple of hours around the lunch or dinner rush, but then you’re making maybe $10 an hour for a couple of hours where you’re on the floor with only a few tables, then $4 an hour for two to four more hours worth of pre-shift meetings, cutting lemons, making coffee and tea, cleaning the soup station, rolling silverware, and whatever other sidework you’ve got. The public mostly only sees the busy part and assumes, “Oh, these people are making money hand-over-fist!”
Also worth noting is the fact that, though federal law mandates that all workers receive a 15-minute break every four hours and a 30-minute break every eight, in my restaurant career I never knew management to offer a break or a server to demand one. A lot of the things that are standard in other fields don’t really occur in the restaurant business.
Consider, also, that the server often gets blamed for things over which he or she has no control. One Valentine’s Day, which should have been a huge night for me, the kitchen crashed, and it was taking over an hour to get food out. The chef - a monumental asshole as only chefs can be - refused to talk to any server who came to the window. Now, the kitchen staff was getting paid the same as they would have if everything had gone smoothly. But the servers bore the brunt of something that wasn’t our fault, because tipping poorly was basically the only way the customers could vent their dissatisfaction.
Honestly, any server worth his or her salt in a reasonably busy restaurant should be making decent money, and be getting enough good tips to make up for the lousy ones. But it’s a much more demanding and stressful job than most people realize, and the bad tips tend to stick out in your mind much more than the reasonable ones, or even the good ones.
Think of it this way: imagine you’re a carpenter, and you specialize in making tables. You make ten tables in a week. You bust your ass, putting everything you’ve got into every table. Eight of your customers are perfectly happy, take their table and pay you the going rate - $100, let’s say. One customer thinks it’s the most beautiful table in the history of furniture and gives you ten bucks extra for it. One customer says, “No, I’m only paying you $50 for this table,” even though you’ve worked just as hard on that table as all the others. Which of those customers are you going to remember later on? Of course, the carpenter has a recourse - he can simply refuse to give the table to that last customer. The server has no choice. When a customer says, “Nope, I’m not paying you for your hard work,” you just have to grin and bear it.
Servers in the US get pay increases if the cost of eating in the restaurant goes up. Likewise they can get a pay cut if the place they work starts discounting their food. Beyond that, the “normal and customary” tip rate has gone, in my lifetime, from about 10% to 20%. For all we know it will climb more, up to 25% or more. Not sure how or why this changes, but it certainly has historically.
Then think I’m cheap. 15% is standard enough - its a huge increase over the 8% that was common when I was a young whippersnapper (the midwest lagged severely in tipping for a long time). And provided you are working for a viable restaurant and getting good hours, should provide a living wage. And if you aren’t working for a viable restaurant or getting good hours, that ALSO isn’t my problem.
And if you do not think you are getting enough money for the labor you provide, switch careers. Waiting tables DOES suck - if there are better job opportunities out there for your education and experience, go get them.
Bluing mine. Hrm? And this is coming from someone who tips 20% unless it’s atrocious service. Really? How do I know what’s a living wage for you? Where do I assume the percentage lies for this difference to be met? I’d prefer if waitstaff were just paid at least minimum wage and tipping went away as a rule. A higher menu price wouldn’t matter to anyone who normally tips and wouldn’t have to anymore.
I don’t mean a living wage for me, I mean a living wage for anyone. We can agree that there is a certain amount of money needed to pay for rent, food, and a few other basics, can’t we? Isn’t that how they figure out poverty levels and such? And I agree, if they could work out a wage comparable to what I make now, I wouldn’t care if tipping went away except for exceptionally good service like they do in other countries.
RedRosesForMe, what started out as a “I’m just trying to understand the mentality…” thread has, I think, become quite an angry rant. If you’ve seriously come to regard your customers as cheap assholes instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt, you know, maybe it’s time to consider alternatives: Different restaurant, different job, or fighting for a tipless living wage situation.
You can’t have it both ways – great tips some nights or a livable wage all the time – but blaming individual customers for a systematic flaw isn’t going to do much. If, averaged month-to-month, your pay really is that dismal and unsatisfactory, why the hell are you still serving there?
Reply, I have gotten defensive about 1) people repeating that tipping is optional as if they don’t understand that servers make nothing hourly 2) this mentality that- look at how many tables s/he has, that’s a lot of money an hour! I oughta wait tables! -ignores the fact that some days you make $2 or $4 an hour 3) and now, people suggesting that perhaps I should find another profession. Seriously? Have I only worked in restaurants with rude, snotty, entitled servers that get mad when they get a 10% tip? Do servers elsewhere really get a dollar on $20 and think that’s cool?
Let me clarify yet again. 15% tip when I’ve busted my ass for you- you’re cheap. Less than 15% and I’ve done a great job- you’re an asshole. There’s a big difference.
So you work an eight hour shift. You make $4 for two hours. $30 for two hours and $10 for the other four hours. You are averaging $13.50 and hour - $27,000 a year if you do this full time. That isn’t a bad wage for something that is not a specialized skill set, does not require a college education. Its tough work - I know its tough work, but I wonder what your expectations are for functionally unskilled labor?
Of course, waiting tables is one of those professions that has a huge range. Someone working in a failing diner in a small town might not make minimum wage in the end (which is why we should just pay waiters a living wage and not tip) - and someone working at an expensive and always busy restaurant (convention restaurants, tourist restaurants) can pull six figures because the dinner rush is extended - happens every day and not just Friday and Saturday nights, starts early and ends late, and dinner features alcohol on expense accounts (which is why some waiters don’t want to stop tipping).
They may very well be assholes, but once you start habitually seeing them as that instead of just people who fucked up / can’t afford it / are having a bad day, whatever, you’re setting yourself up to become very bitter and jaded.
The point is that if you can’t accept assholes as simply part of the job and shrug them off, maybe it’s not the right profession for you. It’s like a pub bouncer getting annoyed that not everyone’s treating him with love and respect – it’s what you signed up for!
I think you’re confounding two separate issues:
One, does waiting at your current place provide a livable income during average months?
and
Two, can certain individual customers behave like assholes?
#2 has already been answered, but if it’s not affecting your answer to #1, why fuss about it? As you’re keenly aware by now, it’s usually not your fault that they tip poorly. So let it go.
RedRosesForMe - I have to mention that just recently you’ve had posts complaining that you were angry with your friend, who was allowing you to stay at her place while you were between apartments. She (or her husband) had expected you to do more household chores than you felt was fair. You also seemed put out that she was expecting you to pay rent for the three weeks you were planning to live there. Then you complained that this woman was a bad parent (pregnant with twins, mentally ill husband, small child, guest staying with them) because she doesn’t conform to your idea of discipline for her child and her cat. Around Christmas you complained because some kid came into the game store and wanted to trade in games on a busy day when there was a new release.
Have you ever thought that maybe you’re the one who is hard to please?
StG
I’m sticking to the waiter rant, to which I can relate. Servers who aren’t getting the tips they deserve have a right to vent. However, I work with a number of servers who think they are a lot better than they really are. They constantly complain about poor tips, but in the end, I don’t blame their customers.
Oh you’ve been pretty damned clear through the entire thread. You’ve mentioned it a couple of times, we get it… we get it.
Yes, you have every right to consider someone cheap or an asshole. I have every right to consider you a complainer who should find a new job since you seem to dislike almost every aspect of the one you have. You only have positive feelings (from your own posts) about customers who tip you a minimum of 20% since you believe 15% is cheap.
You have a bad attitude. Find a new job. That’s MY opinion.
That’s what I was asking, thank you.
I have to say, if a customer is within the bounds of socially acceptable behavior AND they’ve past the tipping point (no pun intended) where you would rather they come in and sit down than not, then I don’t think that person is doing anything wrong. Yes, you are perfectly entitled to think that person is cheap and say so on a message board. I am responding to say that I’m bothered by the idea that someone is cheap because they are not giving away more of their money than social convention calls for. If you want to claim that 15% is no longer within the range of acceptable for the type of place that you work at, then that is one thing. But that’s not the argument you’re making, you said in your first post:
If someone isn’t doing anything wrong and is following convention then I don’t think it’s fair to call them cheap. That’s my rant.
I’m not claiming otherwise. I waited tables for several years because it was reasonably good money and I didn’t have the education for much else. Ultimately, I realized how soul-crushing it was to me to rely on the whims of strangers to pay my wages, and I went back to school.
I was just trying to dispel the idea that waiting tables is easy or the absurd idea that servers anywhere are actually making $80 an hour. You’ve made exactly my point: the busy times balance out the rest of the day when a server is making very little money, and it all averages out to a reasonable-but-not-stellar wage. For every hour you’re making big money, there’s another hour or more that you’re getting paid less than minimum wage for drudgery.
Exactly, and – not to belabor the “system is broken” point too much – but I would add that I don’t see how the tipping system is really adding to “great service.” There are a lot of terrific waiters out there, of course, but as I think **bengangmo **pointed out, service is often perfectly fine in places where tipping isn’t customary. Contrary to the standard server mantra, service doesn’t automatically become crappy without tipping.
Aside from all those great servers, it seems to me that the tipping system tends to create (1) servers who are easily angered when not tipped well, leading to seething resentment and even open displays of rage, hardly great qualities of a waitperson, and (2) servers who are *way *too eager to please with over-the-top friendliness, which leads to such unnecessary comments as, “Oh, great choice. That’s one of my favorite appetizers here. On my days off, that’s what you’ll see me eating. Yes, sir.” As I said before, my SO is a lifetime restaurant worker, so I have respect for how hard they work and how important tips are to them. That’s why I think they shouldn’t have to humiliate themselves in this way.
As for 20% being the standard tip, I seem to remember first hearing about that “change” directly from bartenders and servers. (Nonetheless, I do tend to tip accordingly.)
Side to **Gus Gusterson: **You explained that well. Thanks.
Bottom line: the tipping system sucks. I’ll never understand why certain service industries can get away with legally sanctioned low-balling of employee payroll and expecting customers to ultimately determine, on a voluntary basis, workers’ earnings. All the while, other service industries (i.e., retail) are not.
This disparity ought to be corrected and all employers need to be held accountable for employee payroll.
And for those of you saying, if you don’t like your pay find another job, :rolleyes:. Some of us enjoy our jobs, are good at it, and if everyone who didn’t like getting stiffed for their hard work quit their jobs, there’d be nobody to serve you AND unemployment rates would be far worse than they are now.
I think RedRoses is right about a lot of things. She explained the difference between earning $80 in ONE hour vs. $80/hour better than I could have. I often spent my first two or three hours at the restaurant rolling silverware, setting tables, and then…waiting to get a table. The last hour or so would be me either waiting for the one table who was still sitting there, not paying their bill, chatting, OR waiting until closing time because I MIGHT get a table, and then cleaning up.
For every hour that I earned over $50, there were at least 12 where I earned under $10.
And for the record, 15% is standard and it’s fine by me. 20% is a bonus. I don’t like the upward percentage creep and I never expected it. For good service, I (and most everyone I go out with) will shoot for 15% rounded up to a dollar, or maybe 17%.
I have no problem with the tipping system. It allows for small businesses to be flexible in their hiring and employment, primarily because at the low-end of the employment pool, the easiest way to incentivize good performance among unskilled labor is through cash.
Don’t believe me? Where are you likely to get better service-- a diner with wait staff working for tips, or a fast-food restaurant paying minimum wage? I say this as someone who worked in fast food-- “pride in your performance” may work for some people, but it doesn’t work for most people at the bottom of the wage scale. It’s not only basic Economics 101 (greater incentives = better performance), it’s human nature.
If you don’t think that tipping makes a difference, then you’ve obviously never eaten at a high-end restaurant, where the tips can be quite significant. I get great service at the diner, but at certain high-end places, the service can be equivalent to your own personal concierge. I don’t care what people are making in salary, that kind of service-- like all good service-- deserves to be rewarded.
As for my personal experience, I’m 34, grew up in the Midwest. 15% was always the standard-- it’s what my parents taught me. They also taught me, however, that good service warrants 20%, or even more, and I consider myself today to be a generous tipper. I’ve never broken out a calculator-- take ten percent, add half again, how hard is that to figure out?-- nor do I bother figuring out the tip pre-tax (so in reality, I’m probably a much better tipper than 15%).
That said, I will tip 10% for lousy service-- or no tip at all (and a sidebar with the manager) for awful service.