Does anyone know any instances of someone refusing to provide services for religious reasons other than opposition to gay marriage? Such as a Catholic baker refusing to bake a cake for previously married Catholics who had not received an anullment, or a kosher caterer for a bar mitzvah because they’ll be serving meat but find out the dessert will be cheesecake?
Depending on the kitchen arrangement that could be a legitimate concern. Certainly some kosher caterers won’t use unclean kitchens.
I don’t know of any comparable issue that would compel a customer to sue in order to force compliance or performance from a business. There’s no agenda behind your examples.
IMHO, the whole “make them cater to gay clientele” comes across as a pointed attack on anti-gay sentiment as part of a social change strategy. Is there a comparable social movement behind divorcee rights in the first case, or trayf rights in the second? Is someone pressing the issue of making the Catholic church recognize civil divorce and drop their dogma against divorce and remarriage? Do non-observant Jews feel the need to force deeply observant Jews to cater to them in spite of their rejection of kashrut?
Those arguments have as much validity as the gay rights issue, but no heat and no pressure – no intent to change people’s minds and isolate that exclusionist kind of thinking-- so you’ll probably never see it.
ETA: The reason your hypotheticals probably wouldn’t provoke such a lawsuit (other than individual dickishness), is because the would-be-plaintiff has ample alternatives to the specific business (would-be-respondent) in the hypothetical, and (as I mentioned) no agenda to press. In the majority culture, their current status (divorced and remarrying; kashrut non-observant) are actually close to mainstream, so there’s no intent to forcibly mainstream them. Gay rights are arguably not mainstream (hence all the angst); the turmoil is about the effort to make them mainstream in the minds and assumptions of the consensus culture.
There’s one pretty much ironclad religious reason to refuse service; working on the Sabbath or a religious holiday. Granted, there are a whole lot of businesses for whom that makes no difference, but it’s extremely unlikely you’ll find a kosher caterer who wants to work on Rosh Hoshana or a Christian photographer who will take an assignment on Christmas.
Of course there’s a whole history of health providers refusing to provide abortion services, or even in some cases, refusing to dispense the morning after pill.
I know seamstresses that won’t make dresses for anyone they deem living an immoral life which has meant having an illegitimate child, not getting the proper religious divorce as well as the civil separation, or being a lesbian. Musicians can also have some interesting superstitious beliefs, such as christian groups that won’t work Halloween parties or events that celebrate unmarried, pregnancies. And I have meet one Roma musician (an older guy) who will not perform at Goth/Vampire events.
Wouldn’t that be, like, 98% of his business?
Not working on Christmas or the Sabbath is not at all the same. The business is “closed” those days and does not provide that service to anyone. The same it true with not providing non-kosher items. Those are not on the caterer’s menu and won’t be provided to anyone. Similarly saying you could not cater a Jewish event because you could not provide the proper kosher serving pieces would be OK if you’re willing to provide the same non-kosher service you would to anyone else.
It would be different it you told a (very) reformed Jew you would not serve them ham at their event if you would provide it to a Gentile.
I see it more as a hypocrisy issue. So you don’t want to cater/marry a homosexual because of God’s law? First of all, how do their moral choices affect how YOU practice your religion. But even ignoring that, what other laws from Leviticus/Deuteronomy. Will you ban menstruating women from your store? Will you kill any child that disrepects their parents or any woman wearing pants?
But let’s say you dismiss the Old Testament and decide to only abide by New Testament rules. Then in addition to not catering to homosexuals you should also never cater to women not wearing hats (Corinthians) and should never have women in management positions (Romans).
The reality is it is not a religious issue at all and it is insulting to treat it as such. It is a “I hate fags!” issue so they should at least be honest and stop hiding behind their skewed interpretation of what Jesus said*
*Did he actually say anything against homosexuality?
His business is people that want authentic Eastern European and Balkan folk music, not electronic sounds and Sisters of Mercy cover songs.
Look up the pre-1972 Mormon attitude towards blacks.
Look up the reasons behind anti-miscegenation laws.
Religion has a long history of either promoting or covering bigotry.
There was once a legitimate thought process behind the “Religious Freedom” laws. Then again, there were legitimate positions supporting “State Rights”.
Once these ideas get balled up in the popular mind with bigotry, they lose.
This was my thought behind the question. Are bakers/caterers/florists/photographers suddenly finding religion or have any of them refused to service other marriages they disapproved of for other religious reasons before? It seems to be the former.
Of course it is a religious issue. You can’t accuse people of not being sincere in their beliefs just because those beliefs don’t seem consistent with a fully literal interpretation of their scriptures. By that test, the vast majority of religious people would be considered “hypocrites”. And in the real world, I doubt you’ll find more than a tiny handful of people who oppose gay rights for any reason OTHER than religious beliefs. FTR I fully support gay rights and anti-discrimination laws.
There have been cases where a Rabbinic agency has denied Kosher Certification to restaurants due to moral objections rather than purely for food-kashruth reasons. Here is one case where a restaurant was made to change its name in order to obtain certification from the Orthodox Union. I do not know that any establishment has been refused such certification for expressing a willingness to host or cater gay weddings, but I don’t see why it couldn’t potentially come up.
Many cab drivers in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area are Muslim (usually of Somali descent). A few years ago, there was a problem with cab drivers at the airport refusing rides to people openly carrying alcohol or riding with dogs. However, as you can see from the linked article, this was shot down by the Metropolitan Airports Commission in 2007, and someone refusing such a fare can lose their cab license for up to two years.
Once when I was buying groceries at SuperTarget, the headscarf-wearing cashier, presumably Muslim, had to call someone over to ring up my bacon–she wouldn’t even touch it in the sealed package. It was a slightly uncomfortable situation, and it only happened once, so I’m guessing Target has made touching pork products a requirement of the cashier position.
If Christians refusing to cater gay weddings becomes a thing around here, then they’re going to need to be mindful of how they’re getting home from the airport with their bottle of wine. It runs both ways.
This is factually incorrect – or as close to factually incorrect as one can get when discussing biblical interpretation.
Women and hats, 1 Cor 11:4-6
Nothing in that verse remotely suggests that women should always cover their heads. At best, it’s an exhortation for women to cover their heads in church, or while praying or prophesying.
Your summary completely elides the “…who prays or prophesies…” phrase. Why did you do that?
I also have no idea what verse in Romans might be your inspiration to disallow women in management positions. Care to share it?