Ban on File Trading Software Topics.

I think that it’s important to note that I’m not posting out of rage, annoyance, or beef. Merely curiosity.

Now that that’s out of the way, I always knew that talking about trading specifically copywrited materials was forbidden. But bibliophage, in this thread, says the following:

I’m not sure I follow the logic. What’s the reason behind this rule? Covering the Collective Doper Ass in case of legal issues? Or just general dislike for the practice of stealing an artist’s work? If the file-sharing programs themselves aren’t illegal, then the practice of locking/deleting threads about illegal topics does not apply.

Would questions about, say, hosting an mp3 file on the web, or copying from CD to blank tape also be forbidden? Does the “Can’t talk about something legal if it’s connected, generally, to illegal activity” also apply to areas not involving intellectual property rights, or is that a special case?

“Since this is the pit” :smiley:

I have a beef/annoyance on this subject. I reported a thread (whose topic solicited a “possible” copyright violation, and was full of offers to violate copyright) to a moderator, nothing was done, drafted a pit rant about it, sent a synopsis to a moderator (should I post this? huh?), no answer, got disgusted and deleted my rant (sigh. and apparently also deleted the copies of the letters sent to the mods. double sigh) only to feel faint disgust at the mods reposting this IMHO perfectly reasonable “not allowed” rule while closing the odd kazaa-related thread.

Referenced thread died naturally about the same time I reported it so the altruistic side of me can only argue that the mods didn’t want to attract attention to it by closing it. It was about the same time as this thread series slamming on OpalCat.

A major feature of my never posted rant was about how OpalCat should’ve asked if anyone had a videotape with the Capital I skit, seeing as how that sort of stuff seemed to get a free pass.

AmbushBug
[sub]my sentences ramble and are too long, but it’s too early in the morning for an edit job[/sub]

P.S. Please do not use this post as an excuse to start a big moderator pile-on. Thanks.

What’s the reason behind this rule? Covering the Collective Doper Ass in case of legal issues?
At the very least, the Chicago Readers Ass. As a publishing company making its living by producing intellectual property, they take copyright infringements very seriously. As a result, the administration of the Straight Dope Message Board may frown on possible copyright infringements a little harder than the staff on your average message board. “We” wouldn’t allow someone else to get away with stealing our material. Not facilitating people to do the same onto others is merely being consistent.

Or just general dislike for the practice of stealing an artist’s work? If the file-sharing programs themselves aren’t illegal, then the practice of locking/deleting threads about illegal topics does not apply.
We realise that companies like KaZaa are not illegal. Nor are their products. They cleverly hide behind the old excuse: “well, we only meant for uncopyrighted stuff to be traded, but we have no control over what our end users put out there”. That is exactly why we close topics about them: everybody in their right mind knows that their defense is dishonest at best. Whether or not you personally think file sharing of copyrighted materials is immoral is your own call, but in the view of The Chicago Reader, it sure is. Hence our policy.

Would questions about, say, hosting an mp3 file on the web, or copying from CD to blank tape also be forbidden?
If the hosted MP3 is your own material, or otherwise not protected by copyright, then by all means, post away. You get the idea.
As for the second part: a bit of a gray area. If you’re copying a CD you bought onto tape so you can play it in the car, then that’s fine. If your OP reads “I’m cranking out the latest Weezer CD on tape for 5 bucks a piece”, expect a different reception. But a major part is the impact of it all. A program like KaZaa seriously hits the artists wallet, whereas the occasional illegal CD-to-tape copy has a much smaller impact. The same applies to burning CD’s. There are reasons to do this for personal use, and if you make it clear that this is the case, your thread probably won’t be closed.

Does the “Can’t talk about something legal if it’s connected, generally, to illegal activity” also apply to areas not involving intellectual property rights, or is that a special case?
Hmmm. Well, given the nature of business of the Reader, I suppose this is a bit of a special case. We reluctanlty allow discussions about the personal use of marijuana. But if a thread moves into the direction of where to obtain said marijuana, it’ll get closed. Does that answer your question?

From AmbushBug:
A major feature of my never posted rant was about how OpalCat should’ve asked if anyone had a videotape with the Capital I skit, seeing as how that sort of stuff seemed to get a free pass.
I can see how this is confusing. The Moonlighting thread you mention has a poster, after genuinely exhausting all other options, asking for help in finding a certain episode. Help arrives, and the rest is handled over e-mail. No mention of file sharing applications. Was it on the edge of what we allow? Definitely. But the posters involved went out of their way to keep a low profile about it, and that’s how it probably never got closed. No guarantees that it’ll pass the test again, but it just might.
The other thread you mention is a little more blatant than that, you’ll admit. Poster A asks for a song (which, admittedly, does not appear to be available through regular means anymore), another poster says they can grab it off KaZaa and e-mail it. If we allow that as a precedent, then we might as well allow any breach of copyright.

The video-of-an-old-Moonlighting-episode is a little different. First of all, it is quite OK to tape an episode for personal use: the taped episode of Moonlighting has been paid for by the network. You’re not hurting the copyright holder by taping it for yourself. And since the episode could not be bought through regular means (VHS, DVD), watching it on a borrowed tape is akin to watching a scheduled broadcast on TV: you would have paid the copyright holder if you could, but it wasn’t possible.

The KaZaa example you mention also covers a song that appears to be unavailable through regular means, BUT the method of aquiring it is far more controversial. Indeed, had that thread gone in the direction of “I have an old Muppets tape that you can borrow”, it would have had a better chance of staying open.

Out of interest, is there a cite about that? (No, I dont want to sound spiteful about that, I am just interested.)

The artist’s usually make their money by touring. The record label is paid from CD sales which covers promoting the record. Promotion of the rour is usually a split between act/venue/ticket agents (and sometimes a corporate sponsor). The record label rarely shells out for tour costs unless it is in the form of an advance or for a guaranteed act like the Rolling Stones.

Cite? I have none, but I dated a music agent for a couple of years and my mother dated several musicians. I also wathc VH1 Behind The Music type shows pretty much constantly.

Ah, but poor CD sales would lead to artists not getting contract renewals, or a reluctance on the part of labels to sign any artist but those who seem like they’ll be the biggest mainstream sellers. (Not that this didn’t exist previously, but it’d exacerbate the situation.) Having to go with a smaller label usually means less promotion for your songs, and a smaller listening audience as a result can mean less money from touring.

Not that there aren’t exceptions of course, but this is how, given the above scenario, a drop in CD sales hurts artists. Artists that go so far as to “self-publish” their music out of frustration with major labels are of course hurt more directly if their music is pirated.

You can find an artist’s take on the issue of file sharing here

“A program like KaZaa seriously hits the artists in the wallet.”

I don’t have a cite, BUT: It’s fairly simple. Artist puts music on CD. CD gets sold. Artist gets some of the money.

Downloading the music free instead of paying for it deprives the artist of his income. In the case of transferring music from a CD you bought to blank tapes for use in a car, say, it’s covered by the fact that through some mechanism, artists receive a percentage of blank tape sales.

If my memory is correct, Reality Chuck explained this thoroughly in a Cafe Society thread several months ago.

In the case of retired singers, or the families of deceased singers, the music sales are their only income. Obviously, Elvis Presley hasn’t done a tour in 25 years. His heirs still get royalties from sales of his music.

On the flip side:

Audiogalaxy.com always has an “artist spotlight” on their front page, which is how I happened across a band called Hoobastank months before they were ever heard on radio.

Off of that one download, the band got from me: 2 concert tickets (4 really if you consider a friend went too), purchase of the CD when it was released, and word of mouth from me to a LOT of people. (Who in turn went to concerts, bought CD’s, etc)

The same goes for Guster, Badly Drawn Boy, Drowning Pool, and Gorillaz.

Not to mention (for better or worse) ** Shaggy** made a killing off of his last album, simply because some DJ downloaded a song from Napster and put it in rotation.

And in light of what Spit said, I think a cite would be required before I believe that “a program like KaZaa seriously hits the artists wallet.”

Yeesh, we require a cite for common fucking sense now? Picky, picky.

Hrrm I’m not sure I believe that, cite please.

How can people keep claiming that file sharing only hurts artists with no benefits is ‘common sense’ with all the counter evidence that’s provided? I understand the want to preserve copyright but you know, file sharing has only helped the industry. I’ve bought dozens of CDs by artists that I would have never heard of had it not been for Napster and its ilk. Take a look at the sales of Eminem’s most recent CD, a famous test case if there ever was. Available for weeks in advance and still sold enough copies to be the #1 album in only three days of sales (compared to a 7 day release week). It’s another form of promotion, and sure, some people download and don’t buy, but I believe the net effect is positive. All the file-sharing doom sayers are going to look just as dumb as when the MPAA tried to make VCRs illegal.

They also get money from blank CDs, at least in Canada.

Having been a long-time lurker, seldom-poster - I must say that I’m … happy Coldfire has responded to this thread, as it seems rare for a mod to chime in early in threads set to lambast board policy.

I see this thread is slowly getting hijacked into the “P2P sharing hurts/doesn’t hurt artists” debate. Oh well.

The other side of the debate would characterize this as:

Artist puts music on CDs, nobody buys the CDs, artist puts Mp3’s on net, fan base develops then buys the CDs. Is “appeal to common sense” a logical fallacy, when there’s no clear evidence presented? The earth is flat, it’s just common sense.

AmbushBug
[sub]Officially looking for an episode of the Electric Company. Due to a mental disorder, I am unable to determine whether they have been released for legal purchase. Can you help me out?[/sub]

I’m semi-happy with that response, Coldie, and thank you for it. The Reader is certainly welcome to place a ban on any topic because they consider it immoral. It’s from that area that the ban on hate speech and such comes, and certainly no one has a problem with that.

I assume that discussions of file-sharing programs such as Audio Galaxy and Napster are not under the ban, seeing as how they have programs in place to prevent copywrite violations. Am I wrong?

Also, I think the issue of file-sharing programs hurting artists is less straightforward than your depiction of it. Personally, I don’t particularly have an opinion at the moment - I don’t feel well-informed enough to have one.

Posted by AmbushBug: "artist puts Mp3’s on net, "

Then we have a very different scenario, don’t we? The artist has made a business decision to give out free samples of his work. You have his permission to use it accordingly.

That’s entirely different from swiping his work through the use of unauthorized software programs.

If I give you $10.00, everything’s cool. If you take that $10.00 from me without asking, you’ve stolen it, no? Or is there some complexity here that I’m missing?

My take on sharing has always been the link between owning CD’s, and downloading files. (duh!)

Example:

I have a huge CD collection. I also have a huge collection of MP3’s.
My housemate has a very small CD collection. (maybe 20) He also has a very small collection of MP3’s.

This seems to be the case with pretty much everyone I know. I’m sure there are a lot of folks who download gigabytes of files, and never think of buying a disc…But the vast majority do.

Doesn’t matter one bit whether artists makes more money when people steal their work. Fact is, it’s their property, not yours. If you break into my house and steal the painting on my wall, I’m not going to think that’s okay if you leave behind a stack of hundred dollar bills.

If the artist wishes to distribute his music for free over the net, more power to him. If the artist does not wish to distribute his music for free over the net, you do not have the moral or legal right to make it happen anyway.

The “Bands make more money this way!” argument is a red herring.

Some recent BBC articles.

Piracy blamed for CD slide

The record industry’s thorniest issue

and then just to see the flip side Music slump ‘not caused by piracy’

From a purely personal POV I’ve really only seen programs like Napster adding to purchases rather that stopping them as Raygun99 and Spit have already said.

All of the above doesn’t matter though as the owners of this site make the rules and we either stick to them or move our asses somewhere else. It’s good to have a good whine every now and then though :wink: