I wasn’t really arguing by analogy. It’s really an example* of legislation meant to prevent injuries, like dog ownership regulations would be. I’ve already presented my thinking in the previous two pages, I thought clearly, and it doesn’t rely on “It’s just like cars”.
It was in a northern Ontario town where I nearly lost my life due to traversing a community at the early morning hours during which a pack of domestic dogs attempted to take me down [shudder]
But packs are a different matter…
That poster who decided to have his or her dog put down because it was showing aggressive tendencies, made a painful decision and should be commended for it.
If any dog is unpredictable, and that unpredictability could mean that they kill or seriously maim a child or adult, the dog should be destroyed - no matter what the breed is. I couldn’t imagine living with the fear of knowing that my dog could do this.
That was me. And it was a painful decision, but it’s just a matter of responsible dog ownership. A properly trained dog, pit or any other breed, should allow you to walk up to it and pull food or a chew toy right out of its mouth without so much as growling at you.
When you mentioned people who just ignored the fines because they couldn’t pay them, do the police actually allow that to happen? The reason I ask is that recently when I was fined $75 for a noisy muffler (even after fixing it – another pitworthy situation), they told me that if I didn’t come up with the money before I left the court that I would be jailed until I could. I would think that the owner of a vicious dog would qualify for such treatment more than the owner of a noisy muffler, considering the relative threat to the community.
The mentioned ban has been in place in my native Germany for a few years now.
In the summer of 2000 tabloid newspapers had nothing much to write about. Therefore, they started reporting cases of dog attacks on children. Following an incident in Hamburg where 2 pitbulls killed a child there was a public outcry against such dogs. Unfortunately our government decided to listen to the ravings of tabloid newspapers, hysterical parents (most of whom had probably never seen a pitbull in their life) and the masses in general. They created a new law which made life hell for dog-owners in Germany. To make it more difficult, the law is different depending on the Bundesland (state) you live in.
The law in my state includes:
- banning of 4 breeds of so-called “fighting dogs” (American Staffordshire Terrier, Bullterrier, Pitbull Terrier, Staffordshire Bullterrier) and mixed-breeds from those breeds. These dogs may not be bred or imported.
- dogs of aforementioned breeds have to be muzzled and on a leash at all times, owners need a special permit, dog tax for these dogs is 10 times higher, if you have a police record you can not keep these dogs, etc.
- another list of breeds (Alano, American Bulldog, Bullmastiff, Mastiff, Mastino Espanol, Mastino Napoletano, Fila Brasileiro, Dogo Argentino, Rottweiler, Tosa Inu) is not banned but you also need a special permit, the dog must be on a leash at all times, etc.
- all owners of dogs larger than 40 cm or heavier than 20 kg need a special certificate, insurance, dogs must have a microchip transponder, etc.
The consequences:
- our animal shelters are now filled with dogs whose owners can not fulfill one or more of the conditions stated by the law
- whoever wants a “fighting dog” now buys one in eastern Europe
- dog mauling incidents are still the same as before. No shit Sherlock, when you look at a list of biting incidents by breed, the “fighting dogs” were always in the lowest places. The leader is and always has been our beloved German Shepherd/Alsatian. Of course nobody wants to ban this breed …
- if your dog looks in the least like a “fighting dog”, people in the street will complain (a friend of mine has a street mongrel from Rumania, 40 cm, 15 kg, but his fur has the “brindle” colour you see on pitbulls etc.)
- if your dog (no matter what breed) so much as looks at a child (which may happen, since many children are conditioned by their stupid parents to scream hysterically when they see a dog), the parents will threaten to call the police …
DemonSpawn - thank you for this perspective. In particular, the first and third points are the most significant problem with breed bans to my mind. (Shelter overcrowding is pretty much a fact of life.) The “brindle” color occurs in a lot of breeds. There are at least two boxers in our dog park of that color. So we’re going to start profiling dogs on the basis of color and imposing higher fines, etc.? Who has the burden of proof?
Your second point is interesting as well, and makes sense. I remember in driver’s ed that they try and scare you with the statistic that “most accidents occur within 25 miles of the home.” Well, duh, that’s where people do most of their driving! Similarly, with dog bites, I wonder how many incidents in the U.S. are attributable to Labradors or Goldens, two of the most popular family dogs?
People who ignore fines here, end up going to court and usually, the outcome is that a minimal amount is taken from their income each week. A small percentage of very little is very little. I think some end up going to prison if the number of fines are great enough, but this is avoided as much as possible by the authorities.
Believe it or not I’m actually interested in how bans have worked, so if you have a link or something to how you know this I’d appreciate it. As I said before in this thread I think that a ban could be useful short term and I’d be curious to see if it accomplished that. Of course a cultural resistance to banning the worst offender may screw the results.
Maybe you could also confirm a story I heard years ago- that the polizei switched to a different breed (from german shepard) because to a large degree aggressiveness had been bred down.
I’ve twice raised and buried a German Shephard and they both were extremely considerate of other human beings.
Many biting incidents attributed to German Shephards are due to the imprint of the small teeth in front of the canines. Presumably this was the method to induce sheep to perform as directed without seriously harming them.
You’d be hard pressed to find an online story depicting a Gerrman Shephard attack that killed a child. If you find one I might reconsider my opinion. As much as I loved my Shephards, I consider the life of a child way more valuable.
Here are some statistics I found online:
http://ksgemeinde.de/html/info_statistiken.html
A survey among 93 German cities, from 2000. As far as I know, biting and “threatening” are counted, not only maulings:
Mixed Breed 2376
German Shepherd 1958
Rottweiler 542
Pitbull 320
Dobermann 223
Bullterrier 169
Staffordshire Bullterrier 169
Dachshund 160
Terrier 160
Great Dane 119
Boxer 96
Collie 73
Giant schnauzer 65
Poodle 65
Husky 65
People killed by dogs in Germany, 1968-2000
German Shepherd and mixed breed-German shepherds: 25
Rottweiler: 5
Great Dane: 5
Mixed Breed: 3
Pitbull: 3
Dobermann: 1
coursing dog: 1
Husky: 1
hunting dog: 1
Boxer: 1
Labrador: 1
St. Bernard: 1
unknown: 3
However, such statistics are not very good discussion material. On the one hand, comparing just incidents is useless without taking into account the actual number of dogs of that breed. Since mixed breeds are the majority of dogs, chances of being attacked by one are higher than those of being attacked by a Chinese Crested Dog.
And what is an attack? If a dog bites a stranger trying to take away its bone? A large, friendly dog wanting to “kiss” a stranger? Also, since “threatening” counts, I am sure people feel threatened more easily by a larger breed.
The bans have not really worked as far as reducing the number of attacks. One German state has already decided to undo the new law. Of course the number of attacks by “fighting dogs” has been reduced, since the number of those dogs has been reduced.
grienspace , your theory that German shepherds do not kill children sounds naive. Any dog can kill a child, provided something goes seriously wrong in the dog’s socialisation/training, the child acts stupid enough around the dog and adults are stupid enough to leave the child alone with the dog.
CarnalK: With regards to the police abandoning the German shepherd, it seems that Belgian shepherds (malinois) are “in” at the moment. I do not think that this is because the German breed has changed, which is true. However, there are always “working lines” and “show lines” as well as “family dog lines”. The show lines of the German shepherd are having problems with their hip joints (dysplasia).
There are 9 breeds that are officially recognized by the German police at being fit to be police dogs: Rottweiler, Riesenschnauzer, Malinois, Boxer, Dobermann, Bovier des Flanders, Airedale Terrier, Hovawart and German Shepherd.
Back to the original topic: In my opinion the best way to reduce incidents of aggression with dogs is not to ban the dogs, but to educate the owners. Why can any idiot have a dog? You would not believe the things I see here (I help out at an animal help organisation, run their website etc.). The best thing would be a kind of “driver’s license” for dog owners that you have to get when you want to have a dog. I am quite sure that 90% of the incidents in those statistics could have been avoided with a bit of common sense, knowledge and care on the dog owner’s side and less hysterics on the other side.
Thanks DemonSpawn, I’m not exactly sure what to make of those stats, looks like a mad scientist released his psycho dogs January of 2000. (though really it’s because graph is deaths over 32 years and the other shows all aggression for 1 year). It would be nice to get something showing the few years before&since the ban. Stats do seem hard to find, web access anyway. The “aggression” numbers on mixed and german shepards intrigues me: is german shepard ownership almost as high as mixed breed ownership in Germany?
BTW, the Centre for Disease Control puts the US dog population at about ~55 million in 1996 if that helps put earlier cited stats in perspective. Also, grienspace, German Shepards are third on their list of killer dogs with 14 deaths since 1979 (one quarter of pitbull number).
Couldn’t agree more.
Golly Gee, your DSL goes out for a few days and look at all the nice things people have to say about you when you get back. Warms the heart really.
Anger management problems? moi? Naw, I got an excelent anger management technique, if some one manages to make me angry, I usually manage to smack 'em upside the head, no problem. Give it a try, it’s a pretty good stress reliever.
Though I will concede my aggression is a tad less passive than some of the pimple headed fuckwads on this thread.
Speaking of Rickjay, jeese, that boy uses the word idiot a lot. In my experience people who think “idiot” is some kind of ultimate insult are, average to slightly above average people who have somehow managed convince themselves of their superior brainiation. Hey, Ricky I think I know you, weren’t you that dork in chess club that had a twenty miniute argument with his geek buddy about the difference between an ork and a kobald?
Seriously, I don’t know what it is about your charactor that makes you such a fuckwit, but it is not my fault that someone wants to smack you whenever you open your mouth. So get off my back,you asswad.
A threat? jeese I was only trying to point out that I doubt you go around calling people idiots to their face. In case you missed it the first time around. Go fuck yourself.
I’ll give you one thing though, your rant has convinced me that Baron will live a long, uninterupted life. If for no other reason than to piss you off.
I would post pics of him and his enclosure to help ease the other poster’s well founded fears that he may be an accident waiting to happen, but the idea that Rickjay envisions him as a slavering beast, inches away from the innocent amuses me to no end.
Which brings me to why I brought up Baron to begin with. I have bred dogs for a very long time and have only ONCE come across a case I would consider “bad blood” and then again he may just have the dog equivilant of a mental illness.
He comes from a good line of dogs that have excellent temperment. All of his siblings are just fine. They all went to good homes and are all lazy yard dogs. Though their temperment would make them excellent candidates for guard dog training.
BARON IS THE EXCEPTION. Sure if he got into the wrong hands, he could be a monster. He’s almost there now. Good training once I realized the problem ( no rough-house play, speak only in high tones to him ect, and the introduction of a buddie 'O pal, a little manchester terrior he could kill with a bite.) Has taught him to be a little more gentle, even mannered. But still he remains untrustworthy around strangers. Though quite a bit less so. Don’t worry about Dutchess, she’s fine, though I wouldn’t advise raising a hand to her in front of Baron.
As an aside, Barons siblings could be trained to be much better killers than he could be, as they are more stable and better suited for attack dog training.
Sorry I aint done running my mouth yet.
Is there anyone here that really believes that all dogs can be bred down to toy size? Because that is what you are saying. You want to destroy all animals of the species canis domestica over 40 lbs?
Go ahead and try it. Thats basicly what a ban on breeds boils down to.
My earlier analogy about race was wrong.
Sorry I just “knee jerked”. Crime is higher in black and hispanic areas than average so why not wipe out them?
Cause it’s not all of them doing it. Right?
A better analogy is men. Men are responsible for most of the violent crime in the world. I would wager that men over 190 lbs are responsible for most of the violent sack beatings in springfield.
So the solution is to limit the size of men to 100 lbs.
A better use for analogies is wiping your ass with them, print them out and give it a try.
Touche,
Alas a dagger through my very heart, the pen truly is mightier than the sword.
No shit. I would have been disapointed if anyone read my analogies and thought, “ya know that EG is a very smart feller.” “Dogs and people is the same thing.”
What Ricky missed, (and by your wording, you caught) is that they are stupid beyond belief. They (if implented) would not work. This is my opinion of the proponents of “breed” eradication. If I were a better writer I might have gotten the dripping sarcasm across better.
Damn my office network that ate my carefully researched post last Friday …
That’s it, the 2 graphs are really not meant to be compared with each other. Unfortunately they are about all that’s available online.
I could not find any stats on mixed breeds. The problem is that their births are not registered. Most of them are registered with the city office (for tax), but this data is not centralised (and in some cases probably not even saved electronically).
There are, however, stats on purebred dogs, as the breeders register them to get purebred papers. Each year, more than 20.000 German shepherd puppies are registered. That is the most common breed. Next in line is the dachshund with app. 8000 puppies.
http://www.vdh.de/cgi-bin/vdh_gesamt/welpenzahlen.pl?sort=2003
The actual numbers are much higher, because these numbers are only for registered purebreds whose breeders are member of the VDH (Association of German dog breeders). However, not all of these dogs may stay in Germany.
To cut a long story short: the German shepherd is the most popular dog by far. They are great dogs, but in my opinion do not belong in the hands of beginners and people unwilling to spend a lot of time on training. German shepherds are “watchdogs” and have a tendency to protect people and things. Good socialisation of puppies and thorough training are required.
The ban on pitbulls and similar breeds plus the restrictions put on almost all larger dogs did not help. Sure, a pitbull that does not exist because it was never bred can not bite anyone. But the assholes who used to keep pitbulls et al as “penis enlargement devices” and for fighting are now moving their efforts towards other breeds. The demand for muzzles and leashes even added to the problems, as many dogs are much more aggressive towards each other when on a leash, and also a dog that can never run around freely will be frustrated and dissatisfied - not the best starting point for friendly, relaxed dogs.
The underlying problem, i.e. that any idiot can and will keep a dog without training it properly and without learning to respect non-dogowners and their concerns, remains untouched by this ban. Equally, parents should teach their children proper behaviour towards dogs and not pass their own irrational fears on to them. I always cringe when I walk my dog (always on a leash unless in a specified area) and I see parents pick up their children to get them away from the foaming monster that is my 12 year old 50 cm mongrel bitch.
Today a pit bull running loose in Edmonton attacked a Shih Tzu that was being walked by a 74 year old lady. The 74 year old lady tried to fend off the pit bull. A 32 year old male ran out of a nearby house and kicked the shit out of the 74 year old lady while shouting: “He’s a nice dog!” http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/13/dog_attack_edmonton041013.html
Bzzzzzttt! Read the story…
See, even when it clearly states (several times) what breed of dog, people see “dog attack” and say “pit bull”. And please note that the little old lady was trying to “shield her dog and shoo the bigger dog away” after it “charged her”. Please note the lack of an actual attack against her dog, much less her person.
Anyway, I’d think that this story clearly makes the point that the problem isn’t generally the dog. The dog didn’t let itself out to run loose in the street and the dog didn’t beat up an old lady…
But, no, obviously the dog is the problem, not the crazy asshole man who owns him.
Rottie, not pit bull. My apologies.
Well, that goes a long way in demonstrating what we’ve been saying. The problem isn’t the dogs, it’s the assholes that own dogs and use them much like they’d use any other weapon at their disposal to instill fear in others.