How would you even know the person showering next to you is transgender if you weren’t looking at his genitals?
If the man in this picture was in the latrine or shower with you, exactly how the fuck would you know he was transgender unless you’re gazing at dicks and noticed he didn’t have one!?
You’re fucking lost.
And so it’s clear: that isn’t a hypothetical. His story is here.
Although they will desperately want to avoid admitting it, I’d say most all the folks opposed to transgender persons certainly ARE looking at the genitals of others. Probably with a laser-like focus. The reasons may vary (envy, sexual attraction, inferiority complex, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or just being a plain old nosy busybody), but in the end they are doing it because they judge everything a person was, is, and shall be by whether or not they have an ounce of flesh hanging in a certain spot of not.
That’s the way it’s supposed to work. But people are people. Think of racial equality. It was supposed to happen in the 1860s but it took 100 years before important advancements were made. And we still don’t have true equality. People are people. We are flawed, humanity is flawed.
There are other ways to know if someone is transgender. You yourself gave examples.
Unless… … you looked at their genitalia first. Apparently that’s what you did – you admit that’s the only way to tell if someone is transgendered or not, and then you went and found the articles after.
If you don’t think there will be any discomfort among troops, none at all, if they know, especially if they are in close quarters like open squadbays and open showers, then it’s you who’s obviously lost. Get a fucking clue. Clearly you don’t work with personnel at any significant level, not even a platoon or a company, or even a squad, not at any level, if you assume everyone without exception is going to be professional about it. Clearly you have little experience managing people. Or maybe you have a lot of experience and are in a position of leadership, but if so then you’re fucking clueless and naive about your men and women. You’re fucking clueless about humanity. I’ve lived in and close to San Francisco for decades, I see it and accept it almost every day – LGBTQs. They are people to be loved and accepted, just like everyone else. Live by the Golden Rule. But that doesn’t mean a young private from a small town in the heart of the Texas panhandle, for example, will be as accepting as a young private from San Francisco who has an LGBTQ sibling and whose entire family loves and accepts that sibling. You’re not just fucking lost, you’re simply ineffective.
Let me state clearly for the record, that if I were still in and it was me in those situations, I admit that I might be a little uncomfortable but I would deal with it. I have little to no experience with transgendered people. If there’s any discomfort in my platoon or company then I’d counsel my Marines, they need to acknowledge it, and let’s discuss and see how they’re dealing with it, and remind them that transgenders are allowed just like you and me. They’ve obviously passed the required standards, and as long as they can do the job then they’re a Marine just like you and me and everyone else here. We are all the same color – we are all green. We’re not black or brown or yellow or white, we’re green. And similarly for our different sexualities. That might not be the correct term here but you get the point.
They have to be professionals and maintain order and discipline, and are not to subvert our order and discipline by their words and actions, and even their thoughts.
I suppose that’s possible for those opposed to transgendered people. But wow, that would be sad if it’s true.
By this logic, then, we should never have desegregated the nation or passed sweeping civil rights legislation because people are people and it would never be perfectly accepted? Just because there will always be some bigot somewhere doesn’t mean the rest of the country can’t get with the program.
What examples did I give? We’re supposed to be talking about people in the shower. What are you talking about? If you walk into an open-bay latrine and there is a stranger in there, then how do you know he was born a woman? How, unless you look at his genitals? Breasts? I’ll admit that I’m going to assume breasts are not part of the equation. But if you’re a man walking in to a shower, and there is another man in there who has breasts because he used to be a female, are you going to feel threatened? Uncomfortable? What? Go take a shit or something and wait for him to finish, then. Or come back in 15 minutes. It’s such a nonissue, I really don’t get it. How often do you think soldiers are using open showers, anyway?? Do you not understand that it’s like once a year, if that? Shower trailers in Afghanistan aren’t even open bay facilities. The only ones that still exists are those from decades ago that have not been renovated. Open showers are no longer the norm. Hell, even new basic training facilities have divider walls for showers at a minimum.
So you’ve got to understand that even if the shower thing was a major issue and made people so uncomfortable as to become ineffective, we’re still talking about a situation that would happen every other year or so. And even then, I’d expect the transgender soldier to probably wait until late at night or something to be sure to shower alone or something. Since it’s that soldier who is more likely to feel uncomfortable, not you.
I have absolutely no clue as to what you’re trying to say here. What are you talking about? And, for what it’s worth, I didn’t go “[find] articles after” or whatever it is you’re accusing me of. Either way, when is that ever a bad thing. You’re upset that I provided you with evidence to back up my stance? Regardless, that article is not new to me. I looked for that picture to show you as an example, because I watched a news segment about her last week at armytimes.com. I encourage you to find the video I watched. Listen to him talk, and watch how he acts. See if you think you’d know he was officially a female if he didn’t tell you otherwise.
One of the problems is that everyone expects transgenders to just be running around like drag queens and acting a certain flamboyant way, queering out in front of everyone making the whole unit squeamish and uncomfortable. This airman shows that it’s simply not like that.
Again, I think your tolerance for discomfort is much lower than mine or that of the infantrymen to my left and right. Discomfort? Really? You’re talking about denying basic civil liberties because of your discomfort?
You are a fucking dinosaur! You know who is uncomfortable in open showers? Every fucking private under 25 years old. All of them. Fucking millennials, even if they did play sports in school (which they probably didn’t), they certainly never used an open bay shower growing up. They didn’t use them at basic training since there are walls dividing the stalls, and they don’t use them daily since everyone has his own shower in his barracks room. So when they go somewhere like NTC, or some place with old out-dated shower facilities, they are uncomfortable. They go out of their way to keep their junk covered as much as possible. They shower quickly and make eye contact with no one. Contrast that to dudes over 40 at the gym or something who pretty much walk about the locker room naked and talk to each other with balls swinging. To be honest, I’m not a fan of open showers either. I don’t waste any time getting a towel back around me. The guy next to me could have have a fucking proboscis between his legs and I’d never know. The shower thing is absolutely a nonstarter and a nonissue.
I am a First Sergeant. An infantryman. And a paratrooper. Of course I do not assume everyone will be professional without exception. I also can’t assume that everyone without exception will refrain from getting arrested this weekend, or fight with their spouse, etc. It happens. But Everyone, without exception, who failed to be professional, would face consequences; counseling, mentorship and corrective action if necessary.
Nope.
Yes, this is correct.
Interesting you mention men and women. I have both in my infantry company. Being infantry, having girls in the unit is something that nobody has had to deal with in the past. Everything has been a first for all of us. It did not talk long at all to adapt, as my primary goal was to change absolutely nothing. In the beginning, there were many questions before different training events. “What do we do in the patrol base… How should we do this… how do we handle that… do the females need whatever…” Every time, my answer was “Do what you’ve always done!”
I made it clear to the platoon sergeants that we are a family; we are sisters and brothers. If we’re all sleeping in a huge tent, then that’s where everyone sleeps–males and females. If we’re all outside for a week shitting in the bushes, then that’s what we are all doing. And we’re doing it together. There is only one slit trench in the middle of the patrol base. One. And there isn’t a poncho around it for privacy. You wouldn’t try to sneak a peak at your sisters pussy, would you? So don’t be a fucking creeper.
Guess what? It’s worked perfectly. We’ve fostered a much more cohesive team than units trying to go about it a different way. I don’t imagine it would be any more difficult with gay or transgender soldiers either. At the end of the day, people really just care if the others in the company are pulling their share of the weight. That’s really all they care about. They just want to stop getting a new (or the same one over and over) transgender briefing every month and get on with their jobs.
Young privates did not grow up in the world that you did. Many of them are more accepting of things than some of the older community in San Francisco, even. And sure, some might think it’s disgusting or even an abomination to god, but all of them say the same thing (and we’ve talked about it a million fucking times), as long as the soldier is doing his/her share of the work, they’re find with it.
The main concerns of pretty much every soldier is not “how uncomfortable am I going to be next to that transgender in the latrine”. Almost universally, the main concern is “are the standards going to drop? are they going to get out of deployments for 18 months while they transition? are they going to be on profile and get out of PT for a year? etc”
Everyone just wants a fair, straight deal. If the transgender soldier next to them is working equally hard and deploying with them, and doing PT with them and not trying to use it as an excuse to get out of work, then other soldiers are not going to have a problem with it, professionally. They might not understand or even agree with it on a personal level. But professionally, they only care if they end up having to work twice as hard because some transgender is sandbagging. Those are all fair concerns, to be sure. But to 1) claim that no other soldiers are already doing the same thing (with respect to malingering and getting out of work, PT and deployments) or 2) that every transgender is going to do those things, is completely inaccurate and unrealistic. Each soldier should be judged and adjudicated individually based on his or her performance (or lack thereof). Everyone who meets the standards and can continue to meet the standards, should be afforded the opportunity to serve. Period.
Of course. But I thought earlier you said such a mentality makes a leader ineffective, because humanity or something.
Yes, I see the point. This is good advice that you should take to heart.
Perfectly said. So what is the problem? Comfort level? Certainly you can see how comfort is irrelevant here.
Okay, I think I know what you might be referring to. If it’s my comment to running coach about the living quarters issues not being solved, please allow me to clarify.
My response to running coach was to point out how the current policy doesn’t quite solve the issue of living quarters during the transition process. The military is ready now to accept transgender recruits. It would be absolutely no issue to start doing that right away. There wouldn’t need to be any change to anything other than the deletion of a couple rules in the medical eligibility regulations. If someone has a penis, but their driver’s license or passport says “female”, then the military should accept them and enlist them as such. The issue of showers or barracks, etc. is simply a nonissue.
In fact, what many fail to realize is that the current policy–which was to go into effect this summer, but was then put on hold for 6 months by Mathis (several weeks before Pres. Trump’s Tweet which has affected fuck all)–was to accept transgender enlistees only after they have been stable in their preferred gender for 18 months! So the military was not going to be enlisting transitioning recruits. The military would be enlisting either males or females based on whatever the official identification stated. If someone claimed to be female, but records stated male, that recruit would have to complete the transition and be stable in the preferred gender for 18 months and then enlist. That would be a pretty easy change for everyone.
The issue right now, though, is that there are soldiers who are currently serving who were not allowed to be transgender if they wanted to join. So, some people who really wanted to serve their country, may have put off their transition for a couple years because they wanted to serve first. Others have their own personal or financial reason for not completing or starting the transition process.
So now we have all these soldiers who are serving as males but are really females and they want to be recognized as such. And, as that legal process requires a medical evaluation and treatment (not necessarily surgery, but certainly medical authority), the soldiers will receive that treatment from the government just like any other necessary treatment they might need.
That transition process is a complicated issue. Official policy says that soldiers will be treated 100% according to the gender listed in their records. So, while the transition process might be gradual over a 12-24 month period, the actual recognition from the military is not gradual. It’s overnight!! Worse, though, is that the records are not updated until transition is complete. Not before. But after!
So a male soldier can approach his commander and say, “I’m a female. I would like to transition to my preferred gender. I want to live and serve as a woman.”
“That’s great,” the Commander will say. We support you and will treat you with privacy, dignity and respect throughout the process. But officially, you’re still a man. Go live in the barracks with your male room mate. Ensure you use the male latrine. Now here is where I think you misunderstood me. I was not trying to say that this isn’t really a good answer because other people might be uncomfortable. What I was getting at is the fact there here is a person who is supposed to be transitioning. Part of that process is living as the preferred gender. But, due to the rules, they can only live as that gender off duty, and off base. Is that fair to the soldier? Is that beneficial to the treatment and transition process or would it instead prolong the process? A soldier would only have time to transition on the weekends. And not even every weekend. A medical authority will not sign off on the transition as complete and stable until the soldier has lived as that preferred gender for an adequate amount of time (adequate being determined by each individual case, the doctor, and the soldier). But the point is that this is a requirement. But we won’t recognize them as their preferred, real gender until the transition is complete. And that could take months. Over a year, maybe. Who knows. All the while, the soldier lives and is treated as their current official gender.
So, like I was trying to say to running coach. These are not reasons to forbid transgenders. And there is a policy in place. But, it isn’t quite solved as I’m not sure it’s the best way to go about it. But then, what would be? Should the military update their records to reflect the preferred gender immediately? That’s not necessarily the right answer either.
Personally, though I’m not a policy maker, I think I know the best way to do it. The Army already has programs that allow soldiers to leave the military temporarily to take care of whatever, and then come back in right where they left off and continue their service. So a soldier with 3 years left on his contract is able to get out for a year, and then come back to finish the three years. Time in rank and time service is all put on pause while they are out temporarily. It’s a rare thing, and it’s not always available, but the point here is that there are systems in place to allow it to happen and the military is already set up to handle it.
In my opinion, this is how the military should handle transgender soldiers who are currently serving. Let them get out, putting their remaining service time on pause. Complete their transition and treatment, and then reenter the service with the updated gender code. Sounds great, but what if they can’t afford to live on their own for a year? So maybe that isn’t the best solution either. Or maybe just send them home, continue to pay them base pay, food, and housing during the entire transition, but extend their service obligation for the time they were away. That’s completely doable, but everyone is going to bitch that transgenders get to go home for a year and still get paid. Even though, in the big picture, it’s not that much money. Especially when you figure that their service obligation was extended. Maybe even have a policy that for every month of required transition time, the soldier accrues two months of additional service obligation. When you figure the cost of recruiting and retaining new soldiers, it’s either a wash or it saves money.
Anyway, that’s all just brain storming. The point is, that the total treatment and transition time is going to be different for each person. The treatment plan involves living as the preferred gender for a period of time (this is mandatory per policy) before the doctor can approve the change. It’s counterproductive to the treatment and plane confusing for everyone to have a soldier who says he is female, whom you claim to support and understand yet are duty-bound and required to treat as a male until the transition is complete and the records are updated.
So many other issues as well. While a female is transitioning to male, he may be taking hormones that help him build muscle mass and bone structure. This soldier will be graded on the female standards for physical fitness. She will have an unfair advantage over other cis-females during this period. So much of promotions and evaluations are determined by physical fitness scores alone. Is this fair to anyone?
Recognizing these issues is why the military only wants to enlist transgenders who are already living, legally and otherwise, as their preferred gender for at least 18 months. Enlisted only transitioned, stable soldiers makes perfect sense and that’s actually the policy the government has decided on. What isn’t quite solved right now is simply how to fairly handle the some odd thousands of currently serving transgender soldiers in a way that is healthy and fair to them, fair to their fellow soldiers, and fair to the military service itself.
Showers, tents, close quarters living, latrines, field training… etc. are all non-issues. The only manner in which they should be considered issues is as I explained above. It’s not about comfort or awkwardness, nudity or modesty, etc. It’s about treating a man as a man, but not being able to yet because the records say he’s a female.
I can read. You did not, before Una’s post, say you did not have a problem with “ANY transgender person serving in the military.” Your exact statement was “I don’t have any issue with someone who had previous reassignment surgery joining the military.”
This was immediately followed by “It does seem wrong, though, to offer joining the military as a means of getting reassignment surgery that one may not be able to afford on their own.” Here you explicitly do not support any trans person getting surgery paid by the military. Hence Una’s comment about only people rich enough to get surgery on their own being allowed in.
Yes, you also say “Perhaps a policy of X years of service before becoming eligible would work.” Except your previous statements would mean they would not be able to earn that service.
The rest of the post that Una responded to is directly copying the “it costs too much money” argument, which you even admit later on is one of the detractors’ points. So, by making the same argument, you are in fact saying you think the detractors have a point. That’s not parsing, that’s just what it means when you use the same argument yourself.
At no point in this post did you say that the ban on trans people is wrong, or that the people pushing for it are wrong. But you did borrow one of their arguments. It is thus perfectly reasonable for Una to think you agreed with them on other points that you had not explicitly said you disagreed with them on. (And her own personal involvement with the issue makes her hostility understandable.)
I fully realize that this was not what you meant. You have successfully clarified. But you also claimed Una had twisted your words, and I say she did not.
I am not offended. I am frustrated that the same miscommunication happens over and over again, but I am not offended. I was just trying to help you avoid such miscommunication in the future. And not try to pawn it off as people twisting your words or choosing to be offended.
I fully apologize if I in any way offended you, as that was not my intent. I get overly zealous and come off badly at times. I am not in any way meaning to attack you.
Thank you, BigT.
Updating this thread:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/22/politics/scotus-transgender-ban/index.html
Stupid and monstrous policy – weakening our national security, making the services appear bigoted and thus less attractive to future recruits (young people are overwhelmingly opposed to transphobia), and harming service-members. Every Trump voter owns a piece of the responsibility for this.
How does this weaken our National Security?
AFAICT, by gratuitous fusterclucking and erosion of trust:
Causing unnecessary difficulties for military commanders, and abusing servicemembers with discriminatory and arbitrary exclusion policies, is a disservice to national security.
I just explained it. The future of our military, and thus our national security, depends on a broad recruiting base. If young people see the military as a bigoted organization, they’re less likely to join. Maybe much less likely. I served 15 years ago, and I don’t know if I’d be willing to volunteer again today.
This remains a horrific decision fueled purely by bigotry. The military didn’t even want this.
