Baseball: Bonds still slammin'. Prove anything?

In My Humble Opinion
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[QUOTE=RickJay]
(Shrug) Until 2003 steroids weren’t against the rules. Bonds cannot be faulted, as a baseball player, for doing something that was within the rules to make himself a more effective hitter.

[QUOTE]

Only against the law. Many drugs are not availablewithout prescription. Heck, you have a prescription, you can get coke. It is still used in hospitals.

OK. Try this. If he was doing steroids without a valid prescription, HE WAS COMMITTING A CRIME. His alleged suppliers are facing JAIL TIME. McGwire was using a LEGAL supplement, available OTC at your local GNC. Same with Sosa and his creatine. Bonds? Can you spell felony?

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and I screwed the coding AGAIN! I thought I hit preview. DUH! :smack:

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  1. Dealing ain’t the same as using. And frankly, if using steroids is against the law, it’s a stupid law.

Fact is, until 2003, it was not against the rules. Perhaps it should have been; it wasn’t, and this whole “Asterisk” thing is idiotic. Almost all baseball records are set in conditions favourable to that particular accomplishment. Nobody puts an asterisk next to Bob Gibson’s NL ERA record because he pitched off a higher mound. I don’t see anyone putting asterisks next to Hack Wilson’s RBI record because he did not have to face black pitchers, or next to Babe Ruth’s runs scored record for the same reason.

  1. Umm, McGwire and Sosa have ADMITTED to using OTC drugs. Do you know they weren’t also using under-the-counter varieties? We don’t KNOW who’s using what at this point.
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POSESSION is illegal. Period.

Gibson used the same mound they used for years. Totally legal under the rules of baseball and the laws of the country.

We mentioned andro. And neither of them grew as suddenly, or had the sudden jump in numbers Bonds did (note - McGwire’s record rookie total was over 3 times Bonds’ - the only time Bonds exceeded that total was the year he hit 73). Or the affiliations with alleged steroid factories.

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A little knowledge can be a bad thing.

Steroid users “cycle” on and off. Continuous use of anabolics will usually lead to a coronary after a few years, or at the very least chronic respiratory illnesses. The length of the cycles varies depending on the intensity of the regimen, but as long as he maintains the same conditioning program, there’s no reason why Bonds couldn’t have maintained 99% of his “peak” (ie. end-of-cycle) power even this long after the scandal first broke.

As others have said, getting caught by MLB for drug use takes an extremely stupid or careless individual. Tests are announced, and ways to bypass the detection methods in use (mostly involving methods of submitting someone else’s urine sample) are many and varied. Catheterizing ‘clean’ piss into your own bladder is one of the more extreme ones (yes, I’m serious).

All that said, I don’t think Bonds should get an asterisk any more than any good hitter since about 1970.

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Let’s be fair here. For one, there was NO question about the legality of the mound. Also, every other pitcher during that period had Gibson’s advantage and he was still the best of them. If Bonds is using steroids, I don’t think every other hitter is.

Again, they played by the rules, and they were the same rules everyone else was playing with. If Barry is breaking the law and/or the rules of the sport, that is definitely different. You’re right about THG not being banned, but there were plenty of totally legal supplements and things available that Bonds could have used. If he chose to use steroids, he cheated. Let’s not get caught up in bullshit that ignores the spirit of the law.

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These 3 Guys hit a lot of homeruns
Barry Bonds
Mark McGuire
Sammy Sosa

All three of them have gained considerable size over the lenghth of there careers. McGwire was the biggest to start. . .but he got bigger, still. So, Mark had Andro. Sammy had Creotene. Barry’s got to have (or had) something.

Who cares?

In baseball we’re seeing an OVERALL increase in homeruns. This is due to, as has been mentioned above, smaller parks. The other, and probably more important, difference is expansion. We’ve seen 4 new teams in the last 10 (+/-) years. 4 more in the 60’s-70’s. So, at least 8 more pithcing staffs since the days of Aaron and Mantle and Ruth and Gehrig and the like. It only stands to reason the GOOD pitching is going to be fewer and farther between–meaning the likes of Bonds and Mac and Sammy are facing a lot more mediocre pitchers.

That being said, it still takes an incredible amount of skill to put a round bat squarly on a round ball. Bonds is certainly better at doing that than Big Mac or Sammy. Or Vlad. Or Baggs. Or Giambi. Or A-Rod. Etc. I couldn’t tell you what it is today, but Bonds has had for the last 2 years and so far this year an incredible Slugging Percentage. His On Base Percentage is obsene. Steroids or not, this guy may be the best hitter we’ve ever seen. He puts his bat on the ball squarely–he get’s ‘all of the ball’ as they say. A lot of big guys don’t hit HR’s like Bonds does. If that we’re the case, maybe Brett Farve would be playing baseball–I guess he’s big enough.

For the record, I’m NOT a Giants fan, certainly not a Bonds fan. I think he’s far to cocky about being good at something he’s paid incredible amounts of money to be good at. He’s never been nice to the media or the fans(IMO part of his job)(for that kind of money, put a smile on your face and sign an autograph, for pete’s sake). But, I’ll never question that he’s one hell of a hitter.

Just my couple of cents, Sami

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A bajjillion dollar baseball player has access to several of the brightest chemical maskers out there.

There are about 5-6 guys who are running neck and neck with the doctors who try to detect the drugs they pump into their clients.

Most of the time, a high profile 'roider can dodge detection. The maskers have been frustrating those trying to catch them for years, constantly staying one step ahead.

The scrutiny that players are under only allows them to closely monitor the legal sitaution and stay on the drugs. If anything were to change, they would know about it.

The players still know they will have considerable advanced warning that testing was going to happen.

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This is an interesting allegation. Do you have a cite for it?

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It’s been mentioned in other threads, but Bonds plays half his games in one of the toughest parks to hit a home run in. Maybe the toughest, I forget.

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That is gonna take some damn fine arguing on your part, including a hell of a lot more examples. Yes, racism exists still, but it is not automatically the primary explanation of anything.

Nobody? Really? I’ve heard it quite a bit, and said it myself, too. If not an asterisk, then at least a correction factor when assessing his performances. Sosa’s too, to mention another guy who insists he doesn’t juice but refuses to be tested.

Consider their personalities. For all of his “dietary supplements”, Mac was always a gentleman and a sportsman in every way, at least publicly (there are no angels). He was the primary reason for the restoration of one of baseball’s flagship franchises. Bonds, though, has always had an image of being about himself alone, using his team only as a support structure for his own records. There have been many stories, some grantedly representing Jeff Kent’s jealousy, about all the special treatment he’s demanded and gotten just because of his specialness.

Philster mentioned only “5 or 6 guys” - well, for one thing, just look at the sizes of biceps and deltoids, and then head size, for your own list. Actually, there were many printed rumors that the confidential testing MLB did last winter showed 5-7 percent of the players sampled tested positive - and those are the ones who knew it was coming.

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As for my comment about the Docs versus the Drug maskers, let me dig a little, because it was covered in a few periodicals, and sort of brought to the forefrunt what those ‘in-the-know’ already knew.

As you can see from the Bonds and Company scandal, high profile people usually do business with a few high profile people. As in our world, it’s relative to your status in life. If your poor inner city, you have access to numerous cheap drug suppliers. The wealthier and more elite you are, their are fewer and fewer people to channel your needs through.

Drug masking is the single biggest reason drugs are not detected. Abstinence is not the reason.

Let’s not act like parents who are the only ones naive enough to think their kid isn’t on drugs, when eveyone else knows they are (even sans testing).

“…So sophisticated was the East German program that they could regulate the administration of steroids to guarantee the athletes would test clean in competition…”

“…The East Germans aside, the IOC has had great difficulty in staying up with drug cheats for the past 30 years. Just as testing and detection have become more sophisticated, so have the methods and chemicals used by the cheaters…”

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam020215/col_fidlin-sun.html

THG’s masking quality an ominous sign, scientists say,

By Paul Elias
The Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO -- Its chemical components are similar to most banned steroids but with an insidious twist: This drug was synthesized so craftily it is undetectable by the standard test given to athletes. 
The newly discovered designer steroid even foiled the skilled doping detectives who hunt for such drugs in urine samples, said Dr. Don Catlin of the Olympic Analytical Laboratory at UCLA. 
What he and other scientists aren't so sure of is whether tetrahydrogestrinone -- THG -- was purposely designed to evade detection or if its creator got lucky. 
"It could have been just a lucky shot," Catlin said. "But then I also tend not to underestimate the people who do this." 
THG is at the heart of what one U.S. anti-doping official called a widespread "conspiracy" involving chemists, coaches and athletes that was brought to the agency's attention by an anonymous tip. 
Already, Europe's fastest man -- 100-meter champion Dwain Chambers of Britain -- has admitted taking THG. Other athletes -- including sluggers Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi and boxer Shane Mosley -- have been subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury investigating the nutritional supplement company at the center of the unfolding case...

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10242003/Sports/104983.asp
I’ll try to cite as best I can my claim about a handful of Docs who are spearheading the effort to stay one step ahead of the tests. But you have to accept from my cites and from all news that surrounds any olmpiad that alot of the problem is just that: detection. Alot of the new designer drugs keep the athlete and their supplier one step ahead of detection. And, not having any tests for umpteen years doesn’t help catch the Bondses of the world.

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MLB’s steroid testing called into question
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) – Baseball’s new mandatory steroid testing plan appears to give cheating players every advantage they need to avoid detection while taking illegal performance-enhancing drugs, scientists and doping detectives say.

The plan to test all athletes beginning in March will probably fail, they say, because it ignores the many lessons Olympics officials learned while trying to curb steroid abuse.

“The plan of attack is a very bad plan and it sends a very poor message to fans,” said Dick Pound, a Montreal lawyer who heads the World Anti-Doping Agency.

The tests won’t be conducted during the off-season or post-season. With at least four months free from visits by doping detectives, cheaters have time to illegally bulk up and then rid their bodies of evidence before spring training. …

One popular masking agent is the diuretic Probenecid, which is legitimately used to treat gout. But diuretics, which increase urine production, can also help flush steroids from the system.

Baseball will test for a little more than two dozen steroids and related substances (Olympic testing invlolves hundreds). Since they don’t have to worry about masking agents showing up in tests, experts say players may exploit a league requirement that any positive test be confirmed by a test on a second urine sample five to seven days later. In that time, a player could ingest a diuretic.

**Also, with the average baseball salary surpassing $2 million annually, doping experts said cheaters can easily afford the kind of underground ** chemistry that is developing new steroids designed to evade detection.
http://www.ottawalynx.com/Slam031125/mlb_steroids-ap.html

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Bonds gets the added scutiny because he grew fast, late, and suddenly. McGwire came into the majors a skinny kid, and filled out late, like many taller men do. While he was the heaviest, Bonds may have been more muscular in the beginning. Sosa might even be able to blame some on his environment - he grew up poor in the DR, not well-fed in the US, and McGwire and Bonds grew up better off than most Americans financially. Still Sosa and McGwire grew more gradually, not with an 18 pound jump in a mature man as cited above.

Note there were a lot of small parks previously. Yankee Stadium was under 300 feet down the line. Who has the most pronounced home/away split among major HR hitters? Ott. Over 500 HRS. Less than 200 on the road. And the Polo Grounds was history before Bonds was born. (Ruth actually hit a few more HRs on the road, but not significantly. Yankee Stadium wasn’t a big boost to him)

Actually you understate it. Now, there are 30 teams, all using 5 man rotations. 150 starters. Ruth and Gehrig played when there were 16, usually using 4 man rotations. 64 starters, about 40% of today’s. Mantle played roughly half with 16, half with 20. Aaron a goodly chunk with 16, mostly 20, a chunk of 24 .

Primarily due to lack of offseason testing. Almost all water-based roids flush fast, only the oil-based linger. You can be filthy in Feb, clean in March.

Like, um… BALCO?

Hey, has anyone proved if THG is anabolic yet? I know the defense even denies it’s a steroid, but any decent structural chemist should prove that rather fast. I know andro has been questioned on that point - THG might not work.

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Posted on Thu, Apr. 08, 2004

ANABOLIC STEROIDS AND THG
Information from the Controlled Substances Act on anabolic steroids. The complete act can be viewed online at www.usdoj.gov/dea/agency/

WHAT THE ACT SAYS

``The term `anabolic steroid’ means any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids) that promotes muscle growth, and includes . . .’’ At this point, the act lists 28 substances that fall under the heading of anabolic steroids.

WHY THG’S STATUS IS IN QUESTION

Although THG (tetrahydrogestrinone) is a derivative of the steroid gestrinone – which is banned by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency – no research studies have been conducted on it, and defense attorneys are likely to argue that it can’t be proven to promote muscle growth.

Source: U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration

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FDA Statement
Statement
October 28, 2003
Media Inquiries: 301-827-6242
Consumer Inquiries: 888-INFO-FDA

FDA Statement on THG
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has recently been made aware of a substance called tetrahydrogestrinone (THG), which is reportedly used by athletes to improve their performance. Based on the agency’s analysis of this product, FDA has determined that THG is an unapproved new drug. As such, it cannot be legally marketed without FDA approval under the agency’s rigorous approval standards that are meant to ensure that drugs that are sold to American consumers are safe and effective.

FDA is concerned about the marketing and use of this unapproved product and is working with other Federal law enforcement agencies to aggressively engage, enforce, and prosecute those firms or individuals who manufacture, distribute, or market THG.

“Our mission is to protect the American public from this potentially harmful product,” said John Taylor, FDA’s Associate Commissioner for Regulatory Affairs.

In the meantime, FDA is warning consumers that while little is formally known about the safety of this drug, its structure and relationship to better known products leads FDA to believe that its use may pose considerable risks to health.

**Although purveyors of THG may represent it as a dietary supplement, in fact it does not meet the dietary supplement definition. Rather, it is a purely synthetic “designer” steroid derived by simple chemical modification, from another anabolic steroid that is explicitly banned by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. **

The use of THG by athletes, as an alternative to other banned anabolic steroids, was recently disclosed by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. This substance is closely and structurally related to two other synthetic anabolic steroids, gestrinone and trenbolone. Anabolic steroids, which build muscle mass, can have serious long-term health consequences in men, women, and children.

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**Philster, **

This only pertains to whether or not it is anabolic. Not all steroids are. Have homers been hit under the influence of steroids? Sure. One of the most famous ones: Kirk Gibson’s.

Why was he allowed to use a steroid? Because cortisone is not anabolic. It’s anti-inflammatory. Cortisone is an steroid. So is cholesterol. That’s why I asked of THG actually IS anabolic, but doubt trials have been run.

THG may not be anabolic. Stuff could be illegal to have, but not help. Of course, if he DID have an illegal steroid now, it could be argued he is more inclined to have used different steroids in the past that ARE anabolic.

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Are you kidding? You are stretching for that one. Of course the FDA is referring to it’s anabolic properties. No, wait…it’s a derivative/altered version of an anabolic steroid that suddenly wound up in a class of steroids like cortisone.

I’m dropping this into the ‘give me a break’ category.

IMHO the spirit of the FDA probes and other is with THG as anabolic.

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No, I am not kidding at all. The ASSUMPTION is THG is anabolic. That is a side issue. The FDA often assumes harm until shown otherwise - that’s why the US was almost untouched by thalidomide. I doubt the clinical trials have been done. If we assume that Balco IS the originator of THG, and Bonds DID take THG to attempt to get stronger, it is an attempt to cheat. It would not make it anabolic. Closely related compounds can have varying effects - methanol can easily make you go blind, much more dangerous and lethal than ethanol. Yet they are similar compounds, 1 and 2 carbon alcohols. Drugs have failed to do what they were designed to do before. THG has not been around as long as Bond’s sudden power. If he is inclined to cheat, he was probably using something earlier, something, a Winstrol or the like, a known anabolic.

Do I think he cheated? Probably.

Does that make THG truly anabolic? No.

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Let me tell you something, after studying his bat speed, he looks like a lover of Winstrol cocktails.

Argh…the point about THG is that enough anti-dopers feel strongly enough about it to test for it and ban it…as well as concern themselves with getting past the challenges of even finding when it is present.

So, while it might not have been put through the rigors of double blind studies to prove it’s anabolic effect, it only came up in posts supporting my claim that there is an on-going battle to stay one step ahead of detection…with THG being a classic and current example of athletes who seem to have found a ‘designer steroid’ that could be anabolic and slip it by testing.

BTW, roiders have long known that Winstrol is the choice of those seeking to be super lean and super fast. When Ben Johnson blew Carl Lewis away over a decade ago, I still remember the guys at the gym talking about Ben Johnson and Winstrol, sort of tongue- in- cheek, until they actually announced he lost his medal AND tested postive for Winstrol…(which is found as Winstrol V…where the ‘V’ stands for “Vetinary Use Only”. The picture of the horse on the bottle is a tip off, too. Ditto for “Equipose”. ‘Equi’ being the tip off that it is intended for horses only.

I’ve jammed equipose, Sustanon (4 roids in one), equipose, decadurabolin, test, Winstrol V and a host of other stuff into people, some who were tested and some who weren’t. Done right, I’d say one out of ten guys got busted, but we long suspected those who were caught of not stopping the cycle as they claimed.