I don’t think the threat of a tasering is going to stop an attempt to stab someone. They’ve already gone round the bend, as they’re attempting murder in public, on camera. Tasering could be useful in preventing an attack in progress, but it won’t serve as a threat/example to keep the next person from trying it.
It would probably work somewhat better to keep folks from running around the field like a jackass, but I’m not sure that’s an appropriate reason to do it. Then again, ppl seem to get tased at the drop of a hat these days, so why should this be different?
You do not know he’s not a threat until he’s in custody. The kid could have pulled a weapon out of his pants, or otherwise endangered players, fans, umpires, and/or security personnel attempting to subdue him. I have no problem with him being taken down, whether via taser or other non-lethal method.
Oddly enough, from the link, it appears the Phillies are not pleased about the use of a taser.
From the video it just looks like an unarmed kid running around having fun. There were enough security guys to take him down. Yeah, no need to taser IMO. I bet all those who favored tasering would feel differently had the kid suffered some permanent damage or was killed. Tasers aren’t as safe as you think. Just ask Cecil.
I don’t know that I agree. I think it would have been very sad if someone performing a relatively harmless prank was seriously injured or killed, but as has already been pointed out, a simple tackle and someone falling the wrong way could produce the very same results. People assume certain (foolish) risks when they brazenly break the law. I would have been sad had he truly been hurt just for being dumb, but I don’t think I would have faulted the taser.
Not me. Kid was stupid, and assumed the risk of injury when he ran on the field. It would be sad if he died or was seriously injured, but he has no one to blame but himself.
Difference is that in the history of stupid people who’ve gone onto the field (a grass field by the way) and subdued by security without tasers not a single one has sustained serious injury. From the news, quite a number of people have gotten seriously hurt or killed by tasers in other situations. I think a good rule of thumb by law enforcement is to use the minimum force necessary to subdue a perp. In this case I wouldn’t had even minded if security had chased him all over the field until the nut job tires himself out.
Yeah, and he could have done that without running on the field, too. Should security routinely put the taser on people who get obnoxious in the stands, because they might be about to threaten someone?
No, I agree with the premise that if the taser is to be used at all, it should be a step-down from pulling the gun on a clearly dangerous person, not a step-up from a tackle of a not-apparently-dangerous person.
I bet they’re not! Despite some voices here and on some baseball sites saying right on, I’m pretty sure that on balance this is bad publicity for the Phillies. Philadelphia teams have been trying to get away from the bad-behavior rep for years; the fact that a fan was zapped is going to suggest to a lot of people that it’s a rowdy place with heavy-handed security, and it won’t appeal.
I’ll go ahead and ask, with full admission that I’ve never worked in law enforcement: how does one determine, in the heat of the moment, what the “minimum force necessary” is for a given situation?
The difference is that this kid was in the process of committing a criminal act, resisted arrest and failed to obey the officer’s instruction to stop (I assume the officer gave such an instruction), putting himself and others at risk of bodily injury.
Your obnoxious fan in the stands is doing none of those things. If that fan commits a crime, and resists arrest, I have no problem with an officer tasering or otherwise subduing him, either.
They could take a leaf out of Australian cricket player Andrew Symond’s book. Check out what he did to a guy who ran onto the field:
Note: NSFW, which is the reason that i’ve made it a plain-text link. The person invading the pitch was naked.
Anyway, you know what i think would be the best course of action in cases like this? Have all the players and umpires start walking off the field, and make an announcement over the PA system that the game will be suspended until the trespasser turns himself in to the police. Once they realize that there won’t be an exciting chase, and that the game is going to be delayed, the fans will start booing him rather than cheering him. Once he realizes that 40,000 people are pissed off, and that no-one is chasing him and that he’s not a hero, the idiot will probably stop.
That said, i don’t have too much of a problem with the tasering in this case. Hell, all Philly sports fans should be tasered on spec anyway.
And if I’m the owner, I really don’t want my players risking injury battling trespassers. The player costs me a helluva lot more than an army of security guys.
Now it’s “in the process of committing a criminal act”? Earlier it was “could have pulled a weapon out of his pants, or otherwise endangered…” At least now he’s getting zapped for what he did, rather than what he might do.
There’s a difference between “tasering” and “otherwise subduing.”
In fact I did mean fans in the stands who were violating the same Phillies “guest code of conduct” which this kid was breaking, and which the purchase of the ticket legally obligates them to follow (according to the very fine print on the back).
Attendees at Phillies games are thus required by law to
I stand by the credo that tasers are alternatives to guns, not alternatives to a well-placed body tackle. If you can’t run well enough to chase someone down and subdue them (and that cop or security guard had a gut on him) then you shouldn’t be working in an enforcement capacity, and certainly shouldn’t be using electrical devices to do your job for you.
Yes, trespassing is a crime. It can also be a tort. In this instance, the criminal version is relevant.
No. Obligated by contract. Not a criminal matter, as the Phillies lack any authority to enact criminal statutes. Breach the code of conduct, and they get to make you leave the stadium. If you commit a crime in the process, you are subject to arrest by the police. If you resist arrest, then you might get tased.
The fact that he’s a kid is not relevant. Mooch asked if security should have “waited until the guy kicked the shit out of some ballplayer not paying attention” and I was pointing out that that’s ridiculous. Security should respond immediately when someone comes out of the stands. I didn’t think that was in dispute. Tasering them is not necessary unless they’re a threat.
If the guy does something threatening, they can go ahead and taser him and I won’t mind. But what I said earlier is there is not much of a comparison between this moron and the stabbing, or for that matter, the attack on the Royals coach. This guy (like other idiots who run out onto ballfields) was aimlessly running around the field and trying to get away from security. Parche walked out of the stands with a knife and stabbed Seles. He didn’t meander and he was carrying a weapon. This guy was an idiot but showed no intent to injure anyone. People who run out onto the field are usually just morons and not psychos. The typical method of chasing them down or tackling them works fine.
Who said he has to risk his career? I said it would be funny if the players knocked these guys on their asses. I didn’t say they’re obliged to do it. They have security guards for a reason. Incidentally, tennis did not have real security when Seles was stabbed, and instituted new measures in response. And like I was saying about the Federer incident, what they do have may not be sufficient now.
He said “kicked the shit out of,” not hurt.
My solution is to keep tackling or running them down, which has worked just fine for approximately forever. If the jerk makes a threatening move toward a player or anybody else, go ahead and Taser them. But it shouldn’t be a first resort.
I don’t get why some people think getting hit with excruciating, full-body pain is superior to other methods that might leave a small amount of damage. If the pain is bad enough to make the kid pass out, that’s too much. Wouldn’t you rather be bruised for a little while versus one second of torture?