Baseball Questions

[Jeff_Lichtman]

@AK84

Why is striking the batter illegal? Its not particularly dangerous and surely a skilled batter would have the reflexes to dodge?

Not particularly dangerous? Careers have been ended this way. It was worse in the days before batting helmets (Ray Chapman was killed by a pitch in 1920), but even now a guy can be really badly hurt. I saw (on TV) Terry Steinbach get hit in the head so hard it broke his helmet - he was out with a concussion for a couple of weeks (if it happened today he would probably be out a lot longer).

Here are some more cases where batters were really hurt by pitched balls:

2005, Adam Greenberg hit in head, career ended due to vertigo

2000, Mike Piazza hit in head, concussion

1984, Dickie Thon hit in face, broken orbital bone, partial blindness

1967, Tony Conigliaro, hit in face, fractured cheekbone, never the same again

1979, Gary Roenicke, hit in face, 25 stitches

1995, Kirby Puckett, hit in face, broken jaw and vision problems that eventually ended his career

There have been plenty of cases like this. There has been an even greater number of less-serious injuries, such as broken fingers, bruised ribs, damaged wrists, broken ankles. And even when nothing is broken, it hurts.

Yes, the players have good reflexes, and they usually can get out of the way of a pitch. Sometimes they can’t. The pitch is coming in very fast, and they have little time to react. Sometimes the pitch curves toward the batter so that jumping backwards doesn’t help.

[Superdude]

@pianodave

2. Will players make allowances to be part of an opposing player’s good fortune? That is, if the score is 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th, two out, and you are the only thing between a pitcher and his perfect game, would you swing at pitches you know are out of the strike zone? Or if you’re a pitcher, and the batter has a chance to hit a record breaking home run or hit, or some other milestone, would you toss them an easy pitch? Have there been records of players doing this kind of thing?

As an example, an article from 2001 illustrates this sort of thing. Curt Schilling was taking a perfect game (no one on the opposing side reaches base in any way) into the 8th inning. The Diamondbacks were ahead 2-0, and were 5 outs away from having the 15th perfect game in MLB history. The catcher for the San Diego Padres, Ben Davis, reached on a bunt single to break up the perfect game. Schilling was upset, and Diamondback fans peppered Davis with insults and non-happy thoughts for the rest of the night. Some people pointed out that the game was not “out of reach,” as the Padres could have very well won the game. Several pointed out that one of the “unwritten rules” of the game to break it up.

Side note: Baseball etiquette says that, even if it’s YOUR team that gets no-hit (or a perfect game), you still applaud the pitcher’s achievement, as you’re witnessing baseball history.

[Superdude]

@Jeff_Lichtman

2005, Adam Greenberg hit in head, career ended due to vertigo.

On the FIRST pitch he ever saw in the big leagues. I was watching that game, too. Horrific for Greenberg. He later signed a one-day contract with the (now) Miami Marlins, was inserted into the line-up, struck out on 3 pitches, and was replaced after that inning. He was later invited to spring training on a minor-league contract by the Baltimore Orioles, but he was released before the season started. He then signed with an Independent League team for 2013, and officially retired in 2014.

[AK84]

@Jeff_Lichtman

Not particularly dangerous? Careers have been ended this way. It was worse in the days before batting helmets (Ray Chapman was killed by a pitch in 1920), but even now a guy can be really badly hurt. I saw (on TV) Terry Steinbach get hit in the head so hard it broke his helmet - he was out with a concussion for a couple of weeks (if it happened today he would probably be out a lot longer).

Here are some more cases where batters were really hurt by pitched balls:

2005, Adam Greenberg hit in head, career ended due to vertigo

2000, Mike Piazza hit in head, concussion

1984, Dickie Thon hit in face, broken orbital bone, partial blindness

1967, Tony Conigliaro, hit in face, fractured cheekbone, never the same again

1979, Gary Roenicke, hit in face, 25 stitches

1995, Kirby Puckett, hit in face, broken jaw and vision problems that eventually ended his career

There have been plenty of cases like this. There has been an even greater number of less-serious injuries, such as broken fingers, bruised ribs, damaged wrists, broken ankles. And even when nothing is broken, it hurts.

Yes, the players have good reflexes, and they usually can get out of the way of a pitch. Sometimes they can’t. The pitch is coming in very fast, and they have little time to react. Sometimes the pitch curves toward the batter so that jumping backwards doesn’t help.

Again, so? Thats a butchers bill which is exceeded every cricket season many times over

A ball aimed at the head is one thing. It is the getting to third base while barely touched on the arm that seems strange to me.

[running_coach]

@AK84

Again, so? Thats a butchers bill which is exceeded every cricket season many times over

A ball aimed at the head is one thing. It is the getting to third base while barely touched on the arm that seems strange to me.

A hit batter only gets first. And it’s easier to have a yes/no definition of “hit” rather than try to judge where and how hard.

And that list is a very small sample of careers or seasons ended or shortened.

[pianodave]

This is proving to be an interesting thread. Thank you all for the responses. Here’s another question.

10. What if a pitcher with “poor control” hypothetically does well anyway? If his sparkling defense saves him inning after inning with infield and outfield gems, even though he can’t locate his pitches, what will the media say after the game? Will they criticize him based on his poor performance or laud him based on the fact that he “gave up” no runs?

The crux of this is that baseball is all about luck. A rally-killing double play ground ball could have been a game-winning single had an infielder been placed a little differently.

You can’t say a pitcher “planned” or “strategized” balls to the warning track that just happened to be caught for outs, or hard line drive outs that a defender leaped to grab at the right time. He got lucky, that’s all–shouldn’t the only true measure of a pitcher’s performance be how many strikeouts he achieves?

Following from that premise, if a pitcher gets thirteen strikeouts and gives up a solo home run to lose the game 1-0, well, a loss is a loss is a loss and those strikeouts can’t erase the big fat L in his win/loss column.

Thanks,

Dave

[Superdude]

Baseball is a game of luck. And skill. It takes less than a second from the time that a pitcher releases the ball to the time that it crosses the plate. In that time, the batter has to find the release point of the baseball, identify the type of pitch thrown, determine the spin on it, and attempt to plot its trajectory through the strike zone. He also has to time the velocity of the pitch, and start his hands moving to where he thinks the bat will connect with the ball. A mistake of even 1/16 of an inch can be the difference between a home run and a pop fly.

Pitchers can pitch to their ballpark. For instance, a pitcher who throws balls towards the bottom of the strike zone can induce more ground balls. That can be preferred in a park with small field measurements, like Minute Maid. Whereas a ballpark with bigger outfield dimensions, like Dodger Stadium, can be advantageous to a pitcher who induces a lot of fly balls.

If a “poor control” pitcher has a good game, it’s generally stated that his defense behind him helped tremendously. And he will generally credit his defense. And the media generally does, too.

[Telemark]

@pianodave

The crux of this is that baseball is all about luck. A rally-killing double play ground ball could have been a game-winning single had an infielder been placed a little differently.

Luck favors the prepared, and the skilled. That rally killing double play was most likely enabled by the placement of the shortstop and second baseman, and by the pitch choice. Of course luck plays a factor, but there’s a lot you don’t understand of what goes into strategy and preparation.

You can’t say a pitcher “planned” or “strategized” balls to the warning track that just happened to be caught for outs, or hard line drive outs that a defender leaped to grab at the right time. He got lucky, that’s all–shouldn’t the only true measure of a pitcher’s performance be how many strikeouts he achieves?

There are ground ball pitchers, fly ball pitchers, and strikeout pitchers. They create game plans around their strengths and weaknesses, taking into account the opposing lineup and the game situation. You really don’t understand the analysis that goes into baseball strategy in many ways you’re assumptions are wrong.

Following from that premise, if a pitcher gets thirteen strikeouts and gives up a solo home run to lose the game 1-0, well, a loss is a loss is a loss and those strikeouts can’t erase the big fat L in his win/loss column.

Which is why most folks don’t consider W/L record a real measure of a pitcher’s effectiveness. There are better statistics that let you know how good a pitcher is that take all of that into consideration.

[Barkis_is_Willin]

@Superdude

As an example, an article from 2001 illustrates this sort of thing. Curt Schilling was taking a perfect game (no one on the opposing side reaches base in any way) into the 8th inning. The Diamondbacks were ahead 2-0, and were 5 outs away from having the 15th perfect game in MLB history. The catcher for the San Diego Padres, Ben Davis, reached on a bunt single to break up the perfect game. Schilling was upset, and Diamondback fans peppered Davis with insults and non-happy thoughts for the rest of the night. Some people pointed out that the game was not “out of reach,” as the Padres could have very well won the game. Several pointed out that one of the “unwritten rules” of the game to break it up.

Side note: Baseball etiquette says that, even if it’s YOUR team that gets no-hit (or a perfect game), you still applaud the pitcher’s achievement, as you’re witnessing baseball history.

I remember the Ben Davis bunt single and I had no problem at all with it. I wouldn’t even care if his team was down 10-0. It’s up to the pitcher and the defense to get you out. Just because you’re 5 outs or 1 out away from history doesn’t mean I have to bow down. Nobody wants to get no-hit.

@pianodave

Following from that premise, if a pitcher gets thirteen strikeouts and gives up a solo home run to lose the game 1-0, well, a loss is a loss is a loss and those strikeouts can’t erase the big fat L in his win/loss column.

I was at Fenway Park for what I consider to be one of Pedro’s greatest outings of his career. 17 Ks and 1 walk in a complete game against the Devil Rays in 2000. The first 7 outs came by strikeout and the crowd was losing their minds. He gave up 1 run in the 8th inning and lost the game 1-0. People still talk about that game; the day Pedro was “outduelled” by Steve Trachsel.

[pianodave]

Thanks, Telemark! I’ll read up on this stuff for sure. I guess statistically these strategies and placements do pay off over the course of a season. Very fascinating. Can you recommend a book for me about this stuff? I just watch SNY all the time, I’d love to know more.

[journeyman_southpaw]

@pianodave

Thanks, Telemark! I’ll read up on this stuff for sure. I guess statistically these strategies and placements do pay off over the course of a season. Very fascinating. Can you recommend a book for me about this stuff? I just watch SNY all the time, I’d love to know more.

The Book: Playing the Percentages in Baseball. Co-writer Tom Tango runs an active blog at http://www.tangotiger.com/index.php which is also worth checking out.

[BlankSlate]

@AK84

Again, so? Thats a butchers bill which is exceeded every cricket season many times over.

If true, Cricket has a much bigger problem than being boring as hell. What good is a sport if the elite players are unable to play due to needless injuries? There is nothing sporting in hitting a batter. It takes no special skill.

[Jeff_Lichtman]

Defensive strategy has changed over the past few years. Positioning used to be subtle - for instance, a shortstop might take a few steps to his left or right. Defensive shifts today are more extreme. It’s common today, when a left-handed pull hitter is at the plate, to see the shortstop playing where the second baseman usually plays, the third baseman playing where the shortstop usually plays, and the second baseman playing in shallow right field. This has been the biggest change in baseball in quite a long time.

Here are some positioning tactics that have been in the game for a long time:

Double-play depth: when there’s a runner on first with fewer than two outs, and it would really benefit the defensive team to get a double play, the shortstop and second baseman will sometimes move several feet closer to second base. The idea is that, by playing closer to second, they will reduce the time it takes to get an out at that base, thus increasing the chance of a double play. The risk is that this increases the space between the shortstop and the third baseman, and the second baseman and first baseman, which makes it more likely that a ground ball will get through the infield for a hit.

Infield in: When there’s a runner on third base with fewer than two out, the infielders will sometimes position themselves farther in (closer to home plate) than they usually would. This reduces the time it takes for a ground ball to reach an infielder, making it more likely that there will be time to throw home for an out at the plate. The risk is that positioning the fielders this way makes it more likely that a ground ball will get through the infield for a base hit. I’ve read that positioning the infield in adds 30 points to the hitter’s batting average.

No-doubles defense. In the late innings when the game is tied or your team is ahead by one run, it doesn’t matter (much) whether the opposing team scores a single run or a bunch of runs. Your goal is to prevent that first run from scoring. Teams will often use a defensive positioning called the “no-doubles defense.” The idea is to keep runners out of scoring position (second or third base), where a single can drive them in. The first baseman and third baseman will play close to the foul lines, because a base hit down the line is likely to be a double or triple. The outfielders will play deeper than usual, because a ball hit over their heads is likely to be a double or triple. This increases the chance that the batter will hit a single, while decreasing the likelihood of a double or triple.

[Barkis_is_Willin]

@Jeff_Lichtman

Infield in: When there’s a runner on third base with fewer than two out, the infielders will sometimes position themselves farther in (closer to home plate) than they usually would. This reduces the time it takes for a ground ball to reach an infielder, making it more likely that there will be time to throw home for an out at the plate. The risk is that positioning the fielders this way makes it more likely that a ground ball will get through the infield for a base hit. I’ve read that positioning the infield in adds 30 points to the hitter’s batting average.

That’s interesting that BA would go up so much in those situations. Anecdotally, I feel like I’ve seen the infield in strategy work exactly as intended much more often than not.

With the infielders in, yes their range is limited. But there’s also less ground to cover with less space between defenders.

I wonder how much of the extra BA points are due to grounders getting through compared to would-be routine fly balls sailing over the outfielders, who are also typically much shallower than usual in this defensive set.

[Jeff_Lichtman]

@Barkis_is_Willin

I wonder how much of the extra BA points are due to grounders getting through compared to would-be routine fly balls sailing over the outfielders, who are also typically much shallower than usual in this defensive set.

It’s much more common for the infield to play in that for the outfield to play in. They usually only do that when a sacrifice fly would end the game - for example, a tie game in the bottom of the ninth with fewer than two out and a runner on third. I’ve seen the infield play shallow even in the first inning. It’s not a strategy I approve of (playing the infield in should be done only late in a close game, in my opinion), but it happens fairly frequently. I’ve seen the outfield play in only in walk-off situations.

[RickJay]

@AK84

Again, so? Thats a butchers bill which is exceeded every cricket season many times over

A ball aimed at the head is one thing. It is the getting to third base while barely touched on the arm that seems strange to me.

In sports, a critical test of a good rule is clarity and the elimination of judgments of intent. There are times you can’t avoid such things but they are best expunged from the rulebook.

Baseball’s rule on hit by pitch is very straightforward; if any part of you gets hit even your uniform, you get first base, unless you were dumb enough to have part of your body in the strike zone. The rule is extremely effective in that it eliminates the matter of judgment of the pitcher’s intent. The only real weakness in it is that there is technically room to judge if the batter made no effort to avoid being hit (a rule almost never enforced.)

The reasons for having the rule at all are quite simple; if you don’t have the rule people will be seriously injured, full stop. Baseball pitches at the professional level are ludicrously, blindingly fast, measurably faster to get to the batter than in cricket, and baseball hitters don’t wear as much protective gear. Additionally, the effect of allowing pitchers to hit batters would be to collapse the level of hitting, since every batter would have to back off the plate and be perpetually on guard to jump out of the way. Hitting standards would drop like a stone, scores would plummet, and fans would hate it.

I cannot see any conceivable advantage to allowing pitchers to deliberately hurt people at their whim. If anything I’d tighten the rules up.

[russian_heel]

@AK84

Again, so? Thats a butchers bill which is exceeded every cricket season many times over

A ball aimed at the head is one thing. It is the getting to third base while barely touched on the arm that seems strange to me.

Not only is there no “strike zone” in cricket, a cricket ball is heavier and larger than a baseball, and unlike baseball the ball is unpredictably bounced off the ground after being bowled, so there’s no surprise that Cricket wipes out batsmen with such a higher degree of regularity.

In baseball, a pitcher is challenged to either throw balls in the strike zone three times, or throw outside the strike zone and trick the batter into swinging and missing at those bad pitches (or well thrown strikes), without hitting the batter. Without the hit batter takes a base rule, a lesser skilled pitcher could just throw at the batter’s head 4 times, the batter takes a base, but there’d be a lot of injured batters out there (batters, btw, do NOT get a base if they lean into the strike zone just to get hit by the pitch). Its a testament to the pitchers skill that they can strike a batter out without hitting them even though they may be crouching inches over the strike zone.

[russian_heel]

@pianodave

This is proving to be an interesting thread. Thank you all for the responses. Here’s another question.

10. What if a pitcher with “poor control” hypothetically does well anyway? If his sparkling defense saves him inning after inning with infield and outfield gems, even though he can’t locate his pitches, what will the media say after the game? Will they criticize him based on his poor performance or laud him based on the fact that he “gave up” no runs?

The crux of this is that baseball is all about luck. A rally-killing double play ground ball could have been a game-winning single had an infielder been placed a little differently.

You can’t say a pitcher “planned” or “strategized” balls to the warning track that just happened to be caught for outs, or hard line drive outs that a defender leaped to grab at the right time. He got lucky, that’s all–shouldn’t the only true measure of a pitcher’s performance be how many strikeouts he achieves?

Following from that premise, if a pitcher gets thirteen strikeouts and gives up a solo home run to lose the game 1-0, well, a loss is a loss is a loss and those strikeouts can’t erase the big fat L in his win/loss column.

Thanks,

Dave

I personally wish they would get rid of “W-L” statistics for pitchers in baseball because you can throw for 9 innings, allow one run, and your squad gets shut out and still get a loss while another pitcher can allow 7 runs in 7 innings, but his team scores 9 during that time, and they get a win. Its just not fair to pitchers who cant control what their batters do.

My favorite stat in pitching, while not perfect, is QS or “quality starts”. A QS is pitching 6 innings of ball while allowing no more than 3 earned runs. This allows your team a chance to still win the game, while only putting 3 innings of stress on the bullpen in a 9 inning game. Find me a rotation of pitchers that can average 50-55% QS and I can build a squad of 8 batters that can win a boatload of games around them, I would surmise.

[BigT]

AK87 is seriously asking why it’s against the rules to try to deliberately injure a player? Deliberately trying to hurt people is nit only unfair but morally wrong. I assume it is an accident in cricket, due to bouncing.

[Superdude]

This thread gives me an excuse to link to one of my favorite baseball incidents of all time:

Randy Johnson hits a bird (in flight) with a baseball.

We were speaking before about getting hit with a baseball. There are two incidents that stand out in my mind:

1. Paul Wilson gets hit by a pitch, and charges the mound. Kyle Farnsworth spears him to the ground.

2. In 1993, a 26-year old Robin Ventura was hit by a pitch, and charged the mound. The pitcher, a 40-year old Nolan Ryan, grabs Ventura in a headlock, and keeps punching Robin in the face.

Equally as dangerous - if not more so - than being hit by a pitched baseball is being hit by a ball coming off of the bat. Here is a list that highlights a few times that’s happened.

Also here is an unusual situation: Cubs player Tyler Colvin was standing on third base during a game. The batter hit the ball, breaking his bat. A piece of that bat hit Colvin in the chest, impaling him. It was due to sheer luck that the bat didn’t go deeper into his chest, causing a potential fatality. Colvin scored on the play, medics inserted a chest tube to prevent a punctured lung, and he was admitted to a local hospital, where he was ultimately okay. The bat missed his heart by a few inches.