Baseball Rules -- where does he bat?

[BobT]

But saying the first baseman is now the pitcher isn’t substituting, it’s just changing a position. If you’re subsituting, someone is leaving and someone is coming in.
And in your scenario, you are taking someone out and replacing him with someone who is already in the game.

Zev you are destroying the universe by creating two Giambis in your scenario. Sort of a Giambi and a Giambi prime if you will.

I brought up rule 3.08 because it gives a guideline on what consitutes changing pitchers.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by BobT *
**But saying the first baseman is now the pitcher isn’t substituting, it’s just changing a position. If you’re subsituting, someone is leaving and someone is coming in.
And in your scenario, you are taking someone out and replacing him with someone who is already in the game.

**

Yeah, I know. I conceed that my hypothetical situation wouldn’t fly. However, (going back to the original question), I’m not so sure that the DH role terminates. I still tend to favor Irving falling out of the lineup (since he’s now the pitcher) and King batting in the 9 spot.

**
Zev you are destroying the universe by creating two Giambis in your scenario.

**

BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA!! My evil plan is working!!

Zev Steinhardt

[Lockz]

*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
**

Well, we agree on the important issue (that it probably couldn’t happen.) However, to nitpick, 3.08 only comes into play if the sub isn’t announced. Otherwise 3.03 is applied (which says that managers can sub any player anytime when the ball is dead. 3.03 is limited by 3.04 and 3.05, but other than those exceptions, any switch can be made anytime the ball is dead.)

Incidentally, if this wacky situation ever played out, and the Yankees only tied the game, Giambi would have to pitch to the first batter in the 10th.

Zev Steinhardt **

Maybe I’m overlooking something as I’m not really a baseball nut, but couldn’t the Yankees just put in another guy to pitch? Don’t knnow any rules about substitutions, but this makes sense. Not that the umpires would let it happen, of course.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Lockz *
**

Maybe I’m overlooking something as I’m not really a baseball nut, but couldn’t the Yankees just put in another guy to pitch? Don’t knnow any rules about substitutions, but this makes sense. Not that the umpires would let it happen, of course. **

Nope. When a new pitcher is brought in by a team, he must pitch to at least one batter.

Zev Steinhardt

[wolfman]

Actually, it’s not like a double switch at all. In a double switch, you are replacing two players.

I don’t really know the rules very well but that is the part that jumped out at me in your scenerio. The rules specifically state that a double switch is taking place at the same time. But can a substitution and a player movement take place at the exact same time(or a switch and a half as beeblebrox called it)?

Jones is getting hammered. Giving up the game for lost, the manager sends Irving from behind the plate to pitch. He then sends King from the bench to catch.

Because unless the whole thing can happen simultaneously wouldn’t jones be the catcher for a moment? which would violate the ‘dh goes away if the pitcher is substituted defensively’ part?

[epolo]

*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
Nope. When a new pitcher is brought in by a team, he must pitch to at least one batter.

Nu, so couldn’t Giambi pitch around the first batter and then they bring in Mariano?

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by epolo *
**

Nu, so couldn’t Giambi pitch around the first batter and then they bring in Mariano? **

Sure, if you want to spot the opposing team 90 feet toward the winning run.

Zev Steinhardt

[plasticbryan]

So Zev, when do you think that Yahoo will list Giambi prime? I still need a firstbaseman.

[Polycarp]

First comment: There are two Giambis – the Yankees only got one. Jeremy’s still in Oakland (although Chaim may have some comments about the Royals having lost him ;))

Second comment: “Pitch to one batter” refers to issuing one pitch to the batter – it’s not at all uncommon for a pitcher to be relieved during an at-bat. So (Jason) Giambi can throw one pitch-out ball and Soriano (or maybe Rivera) be brought in to relieve him.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
**
Second comment: “Pitch to one batter” refers to issuing one pitch to the batter – it’s not at all uncommon for a pitcher to be relieved during an at-bat. So (Jason) Giambi can throw one pitch-out ball and Soriano (or maybe Rivera) be brought in to relieve him. **

I’m afraid not. Rule 3.05(b) states that he must complete the turn at bat.

(b) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire in chief’s judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher.

Zev Steinhardt

[BobT]

Zev

I discussed your situation with an umpire. Surprisngly, he didn’t laugh at me. He took it under consideration and told me that it won’t fly.

The principal stumbling block is that the umpires expect a pinch hitter to be someone off of the bench. That’s not explicitly stated in the rules, but that’s the practice that umpires hold to.

He also said that anyone trying such a gambit would be quickly tossed from the game because umpires don’t like these sort of shenanigans.

I think it would fall under the same category of trying to have a pitcher intentionally walk somebody by having him put his hand to his mouth four times.

After the second time a pitcher did that, an umpire would likely toss that pitcher out of the game and his manager as well.

Why? Because he can.

[zev_steinhardt]

BobT,

Thanks for the help. However, this one situation is different because the rules explicitly state that the game pitcher can bat for the DH. If he tried to disallow that (in a normal situation, not in the case my warped brain made up) the manager should (rightly) play the game under protest.
Zev Steinhardt

[BobT]

But the umpire would say, “That guy isn’t the game pitcher, he’s the first baseman (or whatever position you were trying).”

And in your Giambi situation, who takes over Giambi’s initial place in the lineup? If his spot came around again, you would then have another problem.

Apparently, umpires don’t like to have fast ones pulled on them by managers. And working an end around the rule book seems to really piss them off.