[QUOTE=lokij]
And where, pray tell, did you get your figure for Cuba’s very impressive 90%? :>
[/QUOTE]
Cuba: A Revolution in Motion by Isaac Saney.
I’m still looking for the threads that I referenced all this stuff before in more detail before bed.
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
Well, let’s not mince words. I wouldn’t want to live in Cuba. I’m sure life there is very different from what we have here in America, and in most other countries as well.
My point about Cuba isn’t that it’s some island paradise. My point has always been that it’s not as bad as the constant propaganda and bad stories would lead you to believe. They are doing some positive things right. They are doing some things wrong. They’re not a complete brutal place. They’re not comfortable by any means as well. They have different values, desires, hopes and dreams.
No need to hate anyone because of the location of their accidental birth.
[/QUOTE]
WHAT???!!! WHO in this thread said ANYTHING about hating Cubans? Are you crazy? Seriously? Please do not accuse anyone here of hating the Cubans, when we have clearly seen disdain for the way the Cuban people have been oppressed by this evil dictatorship.
And, incidentally, I do not believe that the Cuban people have different values, desires, hopes or dreams than anyone else on the planet…in a certain sense, these qualities are universal. But they are not like us in one very important way…we have the freedom to hold our own values and pursue our own desires, hopes, and dreams. Sadly, right now the Cuban people have no such freedom.
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
WHAT???!!! WHO in this thread said ANYTHING about hating Cubans? Are you crazy? Seriously? Please do not accuse anyone here of hating the Cubans, when we have clearly seen disdain for the way the Cuban people have been oppressed by this evil dictatorship.
And, incidentally, I do not believe that the Cuban people have different values, desires, hopes or dreams than anyone else on the planet…in a certain sense, these qualities are universal. But they are not like us in one very important way…we have the freedom to hold our own values and pursue our own desires, hopes, and dreams. Sadly, right now the Cuban people have no such freedom.
[/QUOTE]
The hate comment was hyperbole.
Do they hate us for our freedoms like the Iraquis and Iranians do?
Crap. This is a hijack.
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
Cuba: A Revolution in Motion by Isaac Saney.
I’m still looking for the threads that I referenced all this stuff before in more detail before bed.
[/QUOTE]
I took your suggestion and looked at the Department of Education, seems the last comprehensive study was performed in 2003. It found that 5% of the US population over age 16 qualified as “non-literate in english”. That 5 percent includes all who only speak spanish or other languages as well as the truly illiterate. So, even if we do unfairly lump non-english speaking Americans in with the truly illiterate we get a 95% literacy rate, still better than your figure on Cuba.
But hey, you know what they say. Lies, damned lies and statistics. Pick whichever ones you believe in. shrug
Much like global warming. Some scientists believe in it ( a vast majority) and some don’t. They all claim to have evidence as well.
If there were only one impartial source…sigh
I was in Cuba a month ago. I’m basically echoing what I was told by a couple of workers there:
The Cuban people want freedom, very much. They want the freedom to travel, to work (either in their own country or abroad - they are still very proud to be Cubans). They are, overall, an intelligent, well-educated, healthy people. In some ways, their government does take care of them. They might not have a lot of choice in food or clothing, but if they have none, their government does step in. If they are sick, they get medical help. Things like eye glasses are free. They see these things as strengths, and as things that will help them, when the time comes, to change their country.
One thing that amazed me, and that I feel Canada and the US and a lot of other countries can learn from, is the national response to hurricanes and tropical storms. Residents are completely evacuated, as are their possessions and livestock - they are brought out of the path of the storms by their government, and when it’s all over, they are returned, and they are helped in getting their homes rebuilt/put back together. Their homes are small, but they all have one, and that’s thanks to their government. Whatever they feel about Castro himself, they recognize that in some ways, they are doing OK.
They are afraid to say it, but they are eager to Castro to die, because they believe things will change for the better. They dislike Americans very much, because they feel that a lot of problems arise from the US’s treatment of Cuba. From what I’ve seen, they are very tolerant of others, either other countries, colours, genders, etc. They are a proud and, despite their hardships, happy people.
I couldn’t help but chuckle a little when a poster said “it’s not an island paradise”. These hardworking men, who have to live all the hardships that life in Cuba has… in their own words, it WAS a paradise, at least geographically. They recognise the beauty of their country, and all the things it has to offer. Obviously, tourism is the big industry, and they want to share what they have with those of us who go there. They just want the freedom to share the beauty of our countries too.
I don’t mean to belittle the problems and hardships that Cuba has. It needs help. It needs to change. In many ways, it is a prison. But sometimes, somethings are being done right, and the rest of the world CAN learn from them. I love Cuba. I will return there. Not just for the beautiful sand and sea, but for the beautiful people, too.
I have not been lucky enough to have been to Cuba, but your description is very accurate according to what I know from my relatives there.
It is interesting to contemplate how much of what they know of their situation is accurate. This is something I haven’t quite been able to put my finger on. With the media and everything else controlled by the government, I think the messages they get about their government and the messages they get about the US are heavily propagandized. I am not necessarily in favor of the sanctions, but I think that within Cuba, the tendency is to blame the US MORE than the Cuban government for Cuba’s problems, which I think is placing the blame on a symptom of the problem, rather than the problem itself.
[QUOTE=lokij]
According to the CIA factbook, the US literacy rate is 99%. Why would we be jealous of Cuba? Cuba’s preventative care is laudable, but it should be noted that good preventative care is essentially the extent of what they can offer everybody.. the resources for more simply do not exist. There are no doctor shortages because of free university education and the quite simple fact that the doctors produced there are not allowed to leave to find more lucrative work overseas. A prison with a good staff of GPs and a liberal education policy doesn’t for one moment obscure the fact that it’s still a prison.
[/QUOTE]
They have been repairing the same American cars that were left there when the party animals fled in the 50s (actually the documentary on that was very interesting). Their resources are nil. Yes, there are some good things that come out of a dictatorship, but you gotta learn to overlook their good points. I would like to see Cuba revert back to the fun-loving island paradise it was years ago. I believe it can happen, but definitely not until Fidel is gone. He’s mellowed somewhat in his old age (illness tends to do that to you), but he’s still a pud.
Wait a minute-I could have sworn that I’ve read that Cuba is heavily homophobic, and that accused homosexuals are often sent to prison. Was I wrong?
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
So, exactly why is it that Cuba is lightyears ahead of the supposedly first-world advanced enlightened United States in so many core issues ?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t accept that those things are ‘lightyears ahead of …’, those are controversial issues that some will find Castro’s views despicable and not worthy of a first world nation. The thing that they have is simplicity of a dictatorship, The Dictator says it - it’s law, no compromise, no debate - that’s it.
Here we can debate, compromise and the like, this way other people contribute THEIR views of how a 1st world nation should be run - this adds much complexity to it, but it does stop extremists from getting their way most of the time, and adds time to changes in laws.
You just happen to ageee with the points (you stated above) Castro has implemented, which seems enlightened to you because it agrees with your POV. In reality there are people see those things as horriable for society.
Okay, besides universal healthcare, decriminalizing sodomy, abortion access, and simple divorce, what has Castro done for us lately?
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I have not been lucky enough to have been to Cuba, but your description is very accurate according to what I know from my relatives there.
It is interesting to contemplate how much of what they know of their situation is accurate. This is something I haven’t quite been able to put my finger on. With the media and everything else controlled by the government, I think the messages they get about their government and the messages they get about the US are heavily propagandized. I am not necessarily in favor of the sanctions, but I think that within Cuba, the tendency is to blame the US MORE than the Cuban government for Cuba’s problems, which I think is placing the blame on a symptom of the problem, rather than the problem itself.
[/QUOTE]
The Cubans who work in the resorts and resort towns do see a different point of view. They KNOW it’s propaganda. They KNOW the Cuban government has as much or more to do with the American policy towards them, but when it comes down to the simple “knowledge” that if there was trade with the US, things would be better. The US doesn’t want to lift the embargo. Therefore, blame them. It’s simplistic, yes (and frankly, I am not knowledgable enough about the whole situation to have an opinion, really!) but it’s something they have to deal with. I mean, they can’t get toothpaste! I’m sure Cuba produces something, but even trade in some of these basics might be a good thing! Although I was very impressed by the amount of self-sufficiency we saw… colas, alcohol, all kinds of food products made in Cuba because they can’t get it from anywhere else. But there’s no trade, no economy… Ok, I’m getting out of my league, but I think I understand their POV, based on my halfremembered conversation with those two workers.
Also, about seeing another point of view… they talk to us Canucks A LOT! They love Canada, but they also get a lot of tourism from England, Italy and Spain. Heck, there was one couple there from the Ukraine! A lot of resort-goers get to know the staff, and subjects of conversation come up, and they learn the Canadian, or English, or Italian POV on the world, on Cuba, on the US (although admittedly, there’s a lot of bias there, too).
IIRC, and there was a language barrier and hesitance to answer, there’s a lot of fear still, and so there isn’t likely to be a rebellion by the people or anything. But I think, once Castro is gone, no matter who succeeds him, the population will raise their voices, at least a little. At least, that’s what people seem to hope for, but who will be the first to talk… I don’t know. Pushing towards opening up some of those economic doors, at least. I think, in one of the worker’s POV, that would be a HUGE step forward.
I think I need to educate myself more on this. I am really just filtering that conversation, and maybe I’m putting my own bias on it. I don’t know. They are such wonderful, vibrant people, and I guess I just want the best for them!
[QUOTE=Ludovic]
Okay, besides universal healthcare, decriminalizing sodomy, abortion access, and simple divorce, what has Castro done for us lately?
[/QUOTE]
Brought peace?
:: d&r ::
I was under the impression they could (and do) trade with other countries – just not us. The thing about the cars…well, that’s the reason they have to make their own parts, because we won’t sell them anything. Other than that, I thought they enjoyed a pretty open market, but that money was the biggest roadblock. Is that incorrect?
[QUOTE=mnemosyne]
The Cubans who work in the resorts and resort towns do see a different point of view. They KNOW it’s propaganda. They KNOW the Cuban government has as much or more to do with the American policy towards them, but when it comes down to the simple “knowledge” that if there was trade with the US, things would be better. The US doesn’t want to lift the embargo. Therefore, blame them. It’s simplistic, yes (and frankly, I am not knowledgable enough about the whole situation to have an opinion, really!) but it’s something they have to deal with. I mean, they can’t get toothpaste! I’m sure Cuba produces something, but even trade in some of these basics might be a good thing! Although I was very impressed by the amount of self-sufficiency we saw… colas, alcohol, all kinds of food products made in Cuba because they can’t get it from anywhere else. But there’s no trade, no economy… Ok, I’m getting out of my league, but I think I understand their POV, based on my halfremembered conversation with those two workers.
Also, about seeing another point of view… they talk to us Canucks A LOT! They love Canada, but they also get a lot of tourism from England, Italy and Spain. Heck, there was one couple there from the Ukraine! A lot of resort-goers get to know the staff, and subjects of conversation come up, and they learn the Canadian, or English, or Italian POV on the world, on Cuba, on the US (although admittedly, there’s a lot of bias there, too).
IIRC, and there was a language barrier and hesitance to answer, there’s a lot of fear still, and so there isn’t likely to be a rebellion by the people or anything. But I think, once Castro is gone, no matter who succeeds him, the population will raise their voices, at least a little. At least, that’s what people seem to hope for, but who will be the first to talk… I don’t know. Pushing towards opening up some of those economic doors, at least. I think, in one of the worker’s POV, that would be a HUGE step forward.
I think I need to educate myself more on this. I am really just filtering that conversation, and maybe I’m putting my own bias on it. I don’t know. They are such wonderful, vibrant people, and I guess I just want the best for them!
[/QUOTE]
Don’t be hard on yourself…sounds to me as though you have picked up a lot from your visits, and you are expressing what you have learned eloquently. Your point of view, having been there and spoken to the people is quite interesting. Seems to me that from what you say, they do understand how much more there could be for them.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I don’t accept that those things are ‘lightyears ahead of …’, those are controversial issues that some will find Castro’s views despicable and not worthy of a first world nation. The thing that they have is simplicity of a dictatorship, The Dictator says it - it’s law, no compromise, no debate - that’s it.
Here we can debate, compromise and the like, this way other people contribute THEIR views of how a 1st world nation should be run - this adds much complexity to it, but it does stop extremists from getting their way most of the time, and adds time to changes in laws.
You just happen to ageee with the points (you stated above) Castro has implemented, which seems enlightened to you because it agrees with your POV. In reality there are people see those things as horriable for society.
[/QUOTE]
You are so right about all of this. It is easy for a dictator to give these kinds of rights, and easy for him to take them away. When rights are given to further the interests of the dictator, then they can easily be revoked if they no longer serve that purpose, or if his goals change. There is no one to answer to.
In democracies, rights are broader…the point of rights such as freedom of speech, freedom to elect a representational government, etc. is that the power is in the hands of the people to make changes. We can steadily improve society, without the threat that the improvements can be reversed suddenly at any time. Any changes that are made are a reflection of what most people want, not a reflection of what a few people want. The people get to decide what they think is best for society, and it does tend to work out so that the extremist voices, while they are heard, do not rule the day.
Y’know, here in America we buy all kinds of products from China because the Chinese can make them and ship them to the US cheaper than we can make them locally.
So when I see the claim that Cubans can’t get basic products because of the US embargo, it kind of baffles me. How can anyone believe this?
Cubans pretty much can’t get ANY foreign goods. You don’t see replacements for those old American cars. So why don’t you see cheap Japanese cars in Havana? Japanese cars are cheaper, more reliable, and cost less to maintain that American cars. Why don’t Cubans buy Japanese cars? Japan doesn’t have an embargo against Cuba.
And of course the answer is the same reason Haiti doesn’t buy any Japanese cars. People in Haiti are broke and can’t afford ANY cars from anyplace. Cubans are better off than Haitians of course, but there’s very little hard currency available to buy foreign goods, and almost all hard currency that comes to Cuba goes to the government. You hard currency to import cars from Japan, and since Cuban agricultural exports are controlled by the government, and Cuban tourism is controlled by the government the only way your average Cuban can get their hands on hard currency is remittances. That’s not gonna buy you a new car.
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
Right. If the literacy rate is 99 percent, then there are virtually no illiterate people.
Let’s Ask the CIA about literacy like we’d ask the Library of Congress about infectious diseases. I’d rather ask the Department of Education, if you don’t mind.
I’ve seen rates ranging from 5 percent to 22 percent. Either way, best or worst case scenario, 99 percent is amazingly inaccurate.
[/QUOTE]
Where, precisely, in your link do you find the 5 percent figure.
Hey, forget about the sodomy. Cuba’s hip and got it going on, man. Not like us primitive, stupid, fat Americanos. That’s why so many Americans have tried to escape to Cuba on homemade rafts. We just want us some island paradise.
No?
Oh, wait. Nevermind.
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Wait a minute-I could have sworn that I’ve read that Cuba is heavily homophobic, and that accused homosexuals are often sent to prison. Was I wrong?
[/QUOTE]
What, you think the law has anything to do with what a communist actually does? I know, I know, you’re being sarcastic, as am I. But for anyone who thinks the law actually means anything in Cuba, remember that the Soviet Union had a lot of liberties, such as a fair and open judicial system, enshrined in their constitution. So obviously the gulags never existed!