(bolding mine) Isn’t that as bad as overlooking their bad points? Let’s look at all their points, bad and good, and get a better picture of the place. Even if it means wading through hip-deep conflicting propaganda. 
If it’s a crime to love your country, then I’m guilty! [/monty burns]
From Cuba’s own Ministry of Health via China Central. I hope you’ll understand that I don’t consider that reliable.
Yes, Joycelyn Elders is so reliable. :rolleyes:
They’ve certainly gotten good at propaganda. At least, good enough to convince you.
This is true. True when a vast majority of people vote.
That span is from a few various links not linked to in that particular response because I figured I’d throw out the extremes.
I know very little about economics. I can barely manage my own bank account. That said…(WAG)
I think the feeling that trade would improve if the States opened up is based on the fact that they are a large, mass-producing country only 90 (?) miles away. The US manufactures a LOT of the things Cubans (and anyone, really) wants and needs. Geographically speaking, they are the natural trading partner for Cuba. While it’s true that Japan, China, Europe, even Canada DO trade with Cuba, in order to do so, they all basically have to go through the US. Sending a ship from Tokyo to Havana for a shipment of household products doesn’t seem that economically viable. Same from France. Even trading with Canada is hard, because either shipments go by land (which can’t be done because of the embargo), or by sea, which still, I think, requires going through US waters or taking a long detour around. It’s difficult to justify, from a business point of view, I think. If the US dropped the embargo, then world traders could supply Cuba with more items, and, conversely, Cuba could sell it’s resources to the world much more easily.
I’m sure money is also an issue, but you can MAKE money, if you have an economy, right?
The other thing to remember is that all these rosy statistics from Cuba are almost certainly lies.
When you live in a dictatorship that uses your literacy rate or your infant mortality rate as propaganda points, it’s worth your life to report that the literacy rate has dropped, or the infant mortality rate has risen, or that the rate of increase/decrease didn’t match the five year plan.
So no matter what happens, you always report that the literacy rate is increasing. And your superiors are happy with this, they don’t give a rat’s ass what the actual literacy rate is, they just want to look good to THEIR superiors, who just want to look good to Castro. Disappoint Castro and you could end up with a bullet in the back of the head. Oh, of course most times it doesn’t come to that…you’re much more likely to be sent for a short and tolerable prison term than be killed, unless you go out of your way to deliberately insult the leader. Cuba isn’t North Korea, after all.
But in a dictatorship with no freedom of press, no freedom of speech, no freedom of movement, every economic statistic has political significance. After the Soviet Union collapsed we learned that the economic information they used to brag about was a fiction that resembled reality only by accident. So when Castro’s dictatorship boasts that the literacy rate in Cuba is 90%, well, maybe it is, and maybe it isn’t. There’s no way to tell either way, because you can’t go over there and do independent sociological research, like you might be able to do in, say, Nigeria.
To clarify my own post, I mean the feeling that life would improve for the average Cuban.
Lemur - places like the University of Nottingham do have Cuban studies departments, and since these people are free to travel to Cuba, there is a fair amount of research they can do. I don’t know what kind of restrictions the government might place on these researchers (I’m sure there are some) but the fact is, there are resources that attempt to portray unbiased/non-propaganda results. I don’t have any statistics to cite, though. I’m just saying that there isn’t ONLY information coming from Cuba itself.
From what I’ve seen and heard (and yes, this is totally anecdotal - but this isn’t GD…yet) the fact that pretty much every Cuban gets a shot at post-secondary education bodes well for the high literacy claims.
At the end of the day, though, I have to ask - “who is the embargo punishing?” We can sit and defend it, because Castro is so evil, or the government has done X, Y and Z atrocities, or whatever, but really, it’s the average Joe (or José!) that suffers most from it. They’re in a difficult spot, and they need help getting out of it.
Of course the embargo has outlived whatever usefulness it may be served at one time. Like back when Cuba was hosting nuclear missiles pointed at the US.
However, the embargo will continue as long as Castro remains dictator of Cuba. When Castro dies, the embargo dies with him. Ho Chi Minh had the grace to die so we could normalize relations with Vietnam.
And bear in mind that the embargo doesn’t cost Americans much of anything. We’re not going to swallow our pride and reward Castro. Not gonna happen.
So if trade with the US is so important, why doesn’t Castro resign? Oh yeah, I forgot, he’s a communist dictator. The only way out of that job is feet first. How many times have the Cubans voted for Castro to be el Jefe, even in an unapposed election like Musharref ran in Pakistan? The same number of times the British have voted for Queen Elizabeth, that is, zero.
For us Brits, Cuba isn’t even a controversial destination. It’s long been an obvious destination for backpackers, and is rapidly becoming just another holiday resort.
No, I’m not being sarcastic. I was under the impression that sodomy was a crime in Cuba still.
That’s fine. Feel free to look it up yourself and let me know what you come up with.
The only reason I know this is because my wife spent years working as an OB nurse. She was in line to visit Cuba (via Canada) to find out what they were doing right when it came to matters of childbirth and aftercare.
Look, Cuba has a crap government and Castro is a prick. Having said that I don’t think everything he does is wrong. You want to talk about propaganda, you are so ready to believe EVERYTHING in Cuba is bad. That just isn’t the case. Read this thread and you’ll learn they do care for their people in an overprotective dysfunctional parent sort of way.
I would love to see Castro fall off the face of the earth, have the USA lift their embargo and see the Cubans change their government into something more open. The day will come and I think the world will be suprised how quick they bounce back and thrive.
No, I believe just what Revenant Threshold said so perfectly. I did not OP the title as " Based on this, I admit that I want to live in Cuba, because they have it over the U.S.A. on all levels and in all ways", did I ? Lunacy.
My point ( from my particular liberal point of view and lifestyle of course ) is that they have made some good healthy choices, in these areas. The Nationalized Medicine and other choices are also good ones. Are there awful problems? Yeah. Are there awful problems in the U.S.A. ? Uh… yeah, as well-articulated in here so far.
We could learn from some of what Cuba does if only we weren’t so pigheaded.
And Mussolini (or Hitler) made the trains run on time (apocryphally).
I said no such thing. I also believe the Cuban people are better than their government.
And some people said slavery was a form of protection. But to continue your analogy, an effective international version of Child Protective Services should intervene rather than having people defend them.
As we’ve seen Eastern Europe bounce back from Communism, it should not surprise anyone to see Cuba to bounce back from its Communist regime. Pretty much the only way they can go is up. And in that case, the sooner, the better.
It’s ironic that you keep talking about freedom when, up until three years ago in some states, people like me weren’t free to have sex with the people we love.
Not that I have any desire to defend Fidel Castro, but that’s a funny way of thinking you have there. I guess I happen to think the freedom to love the person you want to is something that’s pretty important. Probably as important as any other freedom.
Um, the U.S.'s sanctions are not a “symptom” of the problem, they’re a harsh and unnecessarily punitive act that hurts the Cuban people and doubtless contributes to their poverty. Some of the problems of the country are our fault.
Yes. People like you, and the House of Saud that rules Saudi Arabia, and the Taliban.
Sodomy laws are not compatible with a civilized nation.
Excalibre, I actually don’t think you and I disagree at all about this. The point I am trying to make is that here in the U.S., the people have the power to change a law that isn’t right, or at least work towards that change (which is what happened here, and why now, as of 3 years ago, it is legal for you to be in these relationships). In Cuba, the people do not have that power. So, if Castro decides that any particular law is not in his best interests, he can change it at his own whim. So, you can say that having a specific freedom (to have sex with the people you love) is one of the most important freedoms there is, and you may not be wrong about that. But I would much rather have a law I didn’t like and the opportunity to try to change it vs. a dictator who gets to decide all on his own.
Come up with a source that has better numbers, then.
The irony here is that the law only changed when an unelected body - one that acts, albeit within a limited domain, essentially by fiat.
I got nothin’ against democracy. I’m rather fond of it, even. I don’t believe in the possibility of “benevolent dictatorship”. But we only have the freedoms that the majority wishes to give out - thus the rather shocking lack of freedom we sometimes experience. I think it goes to far to say, “But we have freedom,” - and treat it as a fundamental difference between us and Cuba - when often we don’t.
Oh, dear. If I keep thinking about this I’m going to find myself turning into a libertarian. :dubious:
Ha ha…that last line is why I think we are secretly more in agreement than not. 
True that we only have th freedoms that the majority wishes to give out (except in the cases where they are given by the unelected body you refer to in your first sentence)…but you still have the opportunity to try to change the wishes of the majority. Sure, it happens slowly, but it does happen. When I say we “have freedom,” of course that doesn’t necessarily mean we have the freedom to do whatever we want to do, but because we have freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom to petiton the government, etc., we have the ability to evolve our other freedoms in the right direction.
Presumably in the “right direction”, Sarahfeena.
Besides, a Liberal Democracy is supposed to be about preserving the rights of the minority.
Bah. This thread is reading like a debate one.