For a long time I assumed that trade with Cuba is restricted because they have a communist government. However, trade with China is allowed(I think. I know I own stuff that says, “made in china”). What is the difference? Is it simply that the US has so much economic dependence on China and not Cuba?
This has been discussed extensively in past threads. US policy with Cuba is quite a bit paranoid but there are obvious diffeneces between Cuba and China. China is communist in name but moving fast towards capitalism. Cuba is anchored in the cold war. China is large enough it cannot be ignored. Cuba is very small. The way I see it, the main problem with Cuba is Cuba. They are still living in the cold war. If Cuba liberated its economy somewhat, foreign investmen would flock there and the US could not stay out. Vietnam is comparable. There was stronger opposition to open up to Vietnam (for obvious reasons) but the US could not let the rest of the world go in and just look on. While there is some limited foreign investment in Cuba, it is still very small and always with state run enterprises. Cuba is Cuba’s worst enemy. For Castro it is more important to stay in place and defy the US than to do anything constructive. Cuba and North Korea are the two last holdouts of that mentality.
Remember, during the 60s, it was illegal to trade with Red China, too. During the 1930s, it was also illegal to trade with the Soviet Union. The U.S. had a long history of economic sanctions against communist states: there were sanctions against North Korea, North Vietnam (understandable), and Albania, that I know of.
Times changed and most of the sanctions lifted. They remained against Cuba for a variety of reasons:
- Cuba was too close to home.
- Cuba tried to export revolution to the Americas.
- Cuban refugees became an important political factor.
Number 3 is probably the primary reason now. A lot of Cubans have become citizens, and they vote – and never for anyone who would do anything to loosen trade restrictions with Castro. The politicians, knowing what side their bread is buttered on, refuse to allow any normalization of relations.
Once Castro goes, things will change. While he’s alive, though, there’s no chance.
The way I see it, the main problem with the U.S. is the U.S. They are still living in the cold war.
The U.S. is the . . . ah, forget it. Besides, RealityChuck already hit the nail on the head.
I think there should be a statute of limitations (well, that’s not the exact correct term for it as applied, but somewhat similar in theory) for embargoes. If the government of the embargoed country does not “change for the better” within … oh, 5 years, then the embargo should end. We’ve had our embargo against cuba for around 40 years - castro is still in power, so the embargo has accomplished nothing except hurting the people of Cuba more than necessary. An embargo should only be imposed if the benefit of potentially ridding the embargoed country of ‘bad’ (according to us) government outweighs the harm the embargo will cause on the people of that country and the harm caused to the businesses of america (American investors who are prohibited from investing in cuba lose out to investors in other countries who can legally invest in cuba).
Frankly, I think embargoes are unamerican and uncapitalistic. If we have a problem with another country’s government, we should do the american thing and send the CIA in to overthrow them… if that fails (as it did in cuba… argh), we should bomb them to submission. That is the american way.
Reality Chuck described the real reason. There is a huge block of voters in South Florida that will only vote for people who want to kill Castro. Democrats are afraid to offend them for fear of being labeled “soft on communism” and moderate Republicans are cowed by the same threat (as well as the fact that they have a lot of money to spend on Republican campaigns or withhold completely–they never spend on or vote for Democrats). Cynical Republicans like to wave them around like a big stick.
It has nothing to do with Castro as a “threat” or Castro’s committment to socialism and everything to do with not antagonizing the emigrés.
>> The way I see it, the main problem with the U.S. is the U.S. They are still living in the cold war.
Well, you can say that, but the ones going hungry are the Cubans. I do not think the US is suffering much (except for those who smoke Cuban cigars, and I’d be happy if they were all shipped to Cuba anyway).
In any case, if Cuba has any commerce or investing opportunities worth while, the rest of the world would be flocking there and, Cuban-Americans not withstanding, American companies would want a part of the pie. That is exactly what is happening in China. But in Cuba there is nothing but misery. I have been there and I know it.
Does anyone really think the US embargo keeps Cuba poor? Come on! They have a totally failed and collapsed economy which produces nothing. If they produced anything, the rest of the world would be happy to sell them whatever they needed.
There are a few foreign joint ventures with the government and the money they get goes to buy equipment for the police and things of that sort. They have no shortage of Japanese motorcycles, walkie talkies, uniforms etc. In the meanwhile the people are dressed in rags and going hungry. It is not Cuba against the US, it is Cuba against the entire world and against their own better judgment.
I have spent time there and I can tell you it is a pitiful situation but it is not caused by the American embargo. European and Canadian and, in spite of the prohibition, US tourists flock to Cuba but there is nothing there to buy except cheap sex. The economy is a shambles and people have to resort to begging from tourists.
As an outsider (Aussie) looking at this issue from a non-US point of view, I can tell you that the US behaviour towards that little country looks real bad. Create a mental picture of a stubborn, bigoted, overbearing, bullying, uncaring, patronising, we-know-what’s-best-for-you gorilla trying to crush the life out of a mouse in a self-righteous rage that gets worse and more vindictive the longer the mouse refuses to give in to the gorilla’s demands. And the longer it goes on the more determined not to give in the mouse gets, and the more of an international arsehole the US looks.
The US does not treat China in the same way because firstly it would be economically disadvantageous, and secondly China didn’t have the affrontery to be a mouse that squeaked in the face of the US gorilla during the cold war.
Princhester, I think your view, while it may be a common feeling, is just not justified by the facts.
The US may have a formal embargo but the rest of the world has pretty much an effective embargo in the sense that they do not sell anything to Cuba because Cuba has no money to pay. A few countries send donated stuff. I can tell you the buses I saw in Havana were the old buses which had been retired from Madrid. They did not even paint them. They had the same advertisements. Half of the stuff you see in Cuba is donated by charities of other countries. The fact is the economy is just broke and the embargo is self inflicted. If Cuba had any money to pay for things, the rest of the world would rush to sell there and the US would not stay far behind.
In fact, I have spent time in Cuba and I can tell you you can get anything in Cuba. You can get Coke and you can get most American products (imported by way of Mexico or other countries). They are sold to tourists in dollars but they are out of the reach of Cubans. Cubans who have the dollars can buy the products. The problem is there is no productive work.
The Spanish and Canadian joint ventures are not allowed to pay the workers directly. The money goes to the Cuban government.
>> secondly China didn’t have the affrontery to be a mouse that squeaked in the face of the US gorilla during the cold war.
I have no idea what you mean by that. China has squeaked and continues to squeak and squawk. But they have an economy which is improving rapidly wheach means they have money to pay for stuff. The most modern metro I have seen anywhere in the world is in Guangzhou and I was told it was built by Germans. I can assure you the Germans were paid in real money. Germans are also building the famous and huge dam in the three gorges. I can assure you they are getting paid. Cuba has a collapsed economy and cannot pay for anything. Again, if Cuba had any money, you can be sure they would have the goods.
My visit to Cuba was an eye opening experience. And, as I said, I met many Americans while there.
Has the Helms-Burton Law been repealed?
The mental picture I got from this was that of a Marxist dictator standing on the broken backs of those he governs.
I think Princhester’s right about the external perspective on the US and Cuba - most people I know here in Britain feel the same way.
I also think a lot of people are ignoring some of the positive aspects of the country, probably because they don’t know about them or (being brought up in a capitalist country) they don’t consider them to be important when compared to economic strength. I’m by no means saying Cuba doesn’t have serious problems - their economy is extremely poor, and a lot of Cubans are living in extreme poverty. However, they have more doctors and teachers per head of population than anywhere else in the world, and they are ahead of many western govenments in certain fields, like supporting independent organic farming.
I think you are kidding about the time limit but I am not too sure.
If a time limit is given the dictator (or other local powers that be) just has to wait it out and “presto” normalization is restored and the dictator is back on the world stage none the worse for wear. The guy even comes out ahead in this game because he is percieved to have “made Uncle Sam back down.”
Dave berry had a good one on this topic:
CIA motto: Cheerfully overthrowing Castro since 1960.
>> I think Princhester’s right about the external perspective on the US and Cuba - most people I know here in Britain feel the same way.
Well, I have to agree on that one but that does not make them right. People believe many things which are quite false. At the same time it is common knowledge in all of Europe that there is a huge volume of sexual tourism flocking from Europe to Cuba, as well as from North America.
In Havana you can see, as I saw in a cafe, an older woman with a very young teenage girl negotiating the price with a bunch of Germans… That is in practice what Cuba is.
>> However, they have more doctors and teachers per head of population than anywhere else in the world, and they are ahead of many western govenments in certain fields, like supporting independent organic farming.However, they have more doctors and teachers per head of population than anywhere else in the world, and they are ahead of many western govenments in certain fields, like supporting independent organic farming.
This though widely believed is just pure nonsense. It is a big lie. If you travel to Cuba you will meet Cubans who wait outside your hotel to ask you if you can send them drugs from abroad. Cuba’s drugs and health care supplies are mostly donated by the Cubans in the US. There are a few well supplied hospitals and they are for the Cuban elite and for paying foreigners. Cuba is most certainly not ahead in these fields. Cuba’s health care is in a pitiful state. The hospitals have no window panes and are short of supplies, even soap and such.
Also note that by volume of donations the US is #1 (not the government but private donations). Cuba is surviving on foreign donations.
Cubans will always try to talk to foreigners and ask favors. Medicines are one thing they ask for. Another is if you can take a letter and mail it outside the country as they take months if mailed from Cuba.
>> Has the Helms-Burton Law been repealed?
I believe not but it has been suspended since day #1 which is about the same thing. It has never been legally in force.
In any case, if the rest of the world were investing in Cuba you can bet US businesses would pressure the US government to lift any sanctions, just like happenened in Vietnam.
crc no i’m serious about the time limit, but i just typed ‘5’ years randomly… it would obviously need to be more than that. Sure, if the dictator knew that he hadda wait it out 15 years to get rid of our embargo he could try to do so… but the question is, can he? If he can, then we should re-think the purpose of embargoing the country in the first place.
I guess the bigger problem is that we would just “re-embargo” them once the time limit ran out (if the bad guy is still in power). So, unless we can pass a law saying we won’t embargo them for the same reasons … oh… it would be a mess. I just think the principle of a time limit is a good concept… because of the real life example of a 40 year embargo that has done nothing except keep good cigars out out of the US and keep US investors out of cuba. Castro’s still in power, cuba has the highest literacy rate of any south-american country, it’s cleaner than mexico, and the only ones who seem to really hate castro are the formerly-rich ex-cubans living in miami (who lost all their property when castro nationalized it… which of course is a shaft, but life goes on, and they seem to like america anyway).
I think having an embargo on communist cuba but NOT on communist china makes us look like hypocrite pussies. The only reason why we won’t embargo china, but will embargo cuba, is because china has nukes and cuba doesnt. they also make cheap crap that we like to buy.
Kalt, have you been to Cuba? Your reasoning sounds really silly to me:
>> cuba has the highest literacy rate of any south-american country
This is largely a myth and note they supply their own statistics. I do not believe the education system is better in Cuba than in other South American countries. The brain washing yes, the education, no
>> it’s cleaner than mexico
Again, I have to ask, have you been there? Or where do you get this information? I am amazed at how successful their propaganda is. But, for the sake of this discussion, let us assume for just a minute that “Cuba is cleaner than Mexico”(which I repeat, is not the case) does that justify the dictatorship, the political persecutions, the human suffering? Gimme a break!
>> the only ones who seem to really hate castro are the formerly-rich ex-cubans living in miami
Man, you really are ignorant! Do you have any contacts in the Cuban community in Miami? They are all ex millionares? Come on! Most Cubans living in Miami were very common folk. Or are you telling me Most Cubans before the revolution were millionaires?
What about all the ones which still risk their lives to flee? What kind of millionaires are those? The revealing fact is that people still risk their lives to flee from Cuba. If that doesn’t tell you what the situation really is like, then nothing will. I guess they do not appreciate their “clean” country.
>> The only reason why we won’t embargo china, but will embargo cuba, is because china has nukes and cuba doesnt. they also make cheap crap that we like to buy
Yeah. I bet China said: “buy our crap or we’ll nuke you!” and Americans, pussies that they are, are buying Chinese crap out of fear they might get nuked if they don’t.
"This though widely believed is just pure nonsense. It is a big lie. If you travel to Cuba you will meet Cubans who wait outside your hotel to ask you if you can send them drugs from abroad. Cuba’s drugs and health care supplies are mostly donated by the Cubans in the US. There are a few well supplied hospitals and they are for the Cuban elite and for paying foreigners. Cuba is most certainly not ahead in these fields. Cuba’s health care is in a pitiful state. The hospitals have no window panes and are short of supplies, even soap and such. "
I am not going to argue that Cuba does not has drug and other health products supplies. That is true, and they have (the cubans living in Cuba) expressed that way in some interview and documentaries. That cleared, they DO educate and train highly qualified doctors. If they did not, how come they export the doctors to other countried?(I read an article last year that some Cuban doctors where going to Venezuela in exchange of oil, also that some doctors where going to Africa where their help is needed) Also, if they are not ahead in health care knowledge, how come they have an university where they train students of other countries (including US) to become doctors?
The other doper was mentioning their doctor to patient ratio and that the Cubans have a lot of qualified doctors, not the short supply of medicines (which they have, I agree).
KarlGrenze, I do not think Cuba trains better doctors than the US. They may have a good supply of doctors but it seems to me this is one of those propaganda points (like athletes) where the regime will bear any cost, no matter how unreasonable, just so they can maintain a statistic. I don’t care how many doctors they have, their health care is a shambles. If they have so many doctors and are so insufficient in other aspects, it just shows you they can’t plan things right. (“Yeah, he died of something which would have been easily treated with antibiotics which were not available, but he died happy because he was surrounded by ten doctors”)
Cuba helping out other nations by sending doctors is a cruel joke and just propaganda. Food is rationed in Cuba and people are going hungry. Cuba is not in a position to help anyone. The cost of sending doctors to other nations is paid very dearly by the Cuban people.
The joke I heard in Cuba is that people will do anything to become doctors just so they can leave the country.
On a different note: I recently saw a TV program where Michael Palin traces Hemmingway’s footsteps. The Cuban part was interesting. Cubans venerate Hemingway. Palin interviewed the skipper of the boat who used to take Hemmingway fishing. The guy is over 100 now. He said Cuba was on the right track and soon there would be a great war between communist nations and the USA and the US would be defeated and Cuba would come out victorious. Palin asked him “do you really believe that?” and the man said “of course! without a doubt!” It goes to show you in what kind of ignorance the few who support the system live.
I’ve seen that in Detroit (and Nigeria, and Malaysia…okay, it wasn’t Germans every time). Why is Cuba any different?
So are half the countries in the world. Why is Cuba different?
Sailor I think that the points you are making are largely red herrings.
I am not saying that Cuba is a wonderful place, or that they are anything other than devastatingly poor, or that a dictorship is a desirable form of government or that if US sanctions were lifted everything in Cuba would be instantly rosy, or that other nations don’t break the embargo to some extent.
What I am saying is that none of the above is helped by Cuba being subject to heavy handed sanctions and being treated like a pariah state by the global power on whose doorstep they live.
Nothing you have said alters the simple fact that whatever other problems Cuba has, the US almost certainly makes them worse, and the US is or should be big hearted enough to handle those problems by other than thuggish, bullying, standover means.
Bush has said that he believes that free trade is a tool of liberation because it encourages the spread of ideas and freedom, not just goods. To a certain extent I agree. Last month he held a trade conference with virtually all of South America, expressing the above ideal. By his own logic, Cuba should have been a star invitee, but no, the blind spot in relation to Cuba persists.
Even if you accept that sanctions are a legitimate means of applying pressure to foreign governments to achieve policy goals, for how many years is the US going to persist before they realise that sanctions against Cuba have FAILED. If you have applied a treatment to something, and it hasn’t worked for LITERALLY DECADES, just how long are you going to go on before the voices saying, “Aah, hello, it’s NOT WORKING, guys” get through? No, if the US was seriously trying to find a cure, it would have changed tack long ago. Which is why the world looking on concludes it is a bullying grudge match in which the US is too stubborn and mean and unwilling to lose face to back down.
By providing Cuba with a huge, overbearing enemy, the US creates the perfect environment for the survival of a military dictator. Such people always thrive in an atmosphere where the population can easily be lead to believe that a “strong man” leader who will stand up to the nation’s enemies is essential.
Sailor if as you vehemently argue, US sanctions are not hurting Cuba then what exactly are they for? Are you saying they are just some sort of empty gesture? Dream on.
And finally, Sailor you say you don’t understand my comment that “China didn’t have the affrontery to be a mouse that squeaked in the face of the US gorilla during the cold war.”
My point was that China is a powerful nation, approaching world power status. They don’t sqeak, they roar (or at least yell pretty loud). As an international bully, the US understands and respects that kind of threat. But what a bully really can’t stand is a pipsqueak on their doorstep who won’t kowtow to them. And I think there are people in the US who have a very long standing grudge against Cuba for their damned impudence (Cuban missile crisis in particular).
And now Libertarian. You miss the point. Castro is a thug. That does not excuse the US for being a bigger thug. And please don’t try to tell me that the US has any sort of consistent policy of sanctioning dictators. The US is quite happy with US friendly dictators, in fact as others have pointed out, the US instals such people as a standard foreign policy tactic. After all, Saddam has “Made in the USA” stamped on his back (not to mention much of his armament) the only catch being that he got out of control.
No, the sanctions are not because Castro is a nasty dictator, they are because he is a nasty dictator who is not a US puppet.