Say that the electrical work for the refinish was performed well and to code, but no permit was obtained and no inspection performed.
A couple of years later an electrical fire occurs and causes significant damage or burns the house down.
Would the fact that the work was not permitted/inspected cause some difficulty with Homeowner’s insurance?
Almost certainly, in virtually any jurisdiction. Insurance companies aren’t your friends and all policies I’ve read contained provisions excluding losses that might result from unpermitted/uninspected modifications of the covered property.
The insurance company, the bank and the government don’t really have a clue as to what was original what was permitted, what was changed, who changed it, or when it was changed.
This is kind of what I expected, and what one contractor warned us about. He said that the only way the county would find out if we did work without a permit is if a spiteful neighbor turned us in. He soft-pedalled the issue of what happens when we sell. Paying more tax is no fun, but I’m with you on the principle.
Ironically, just yesterday a tax assessor from the county knocked on the door and asked me some questions about the house, and then took some measurements of the exterior. He didn’t come inside, but he did ask specifically if the basement was finished. So I guess I won’t be able to claim, when we sell, that the previous owner had had the work done.
No bedrooms, but an outside door and windows are already in place. We’ll have one big space, 15x33 feet, that will be a TV room/library/playroom, plus a bathroom, store room, closet, furnace room, and workshop/storage space. And perhaps a secret room.
Yes, even if I were inclined to be sneaky, this is one of the most compelling reasons to get permits, since we will probably not spend our retirement in this house, and could move within ten years or so.
In my opinion a basement isn’t really finished until it’s painted the perfect color.
But the government does know about the state of my basement: when we bought the house a few months ago the basement was listed as unfinished in the real estate listings, which were almost certainly derived from county records. And, as I mentioned above, I confirmed that with a county official yesterday. Wouldn’t the fact that the county knew that the basement wasn’t finished in 2018, and was finished when the theoretical fire occurred, allow an insurance company/bank/etc. infer that if no permits can be found the work was not permitted? Maybe they don’t always bother to check, but they certainly could if they wanted to, couldn’t they?
Of course they’ll check! It’s called loss control and it’s routine for any significant claim. The insurer would like nothing better than to collect years and years of premiums then deny your claim and cancel your coverage.
People pull this all the time, make modifications that they think can be hidden and so avoid permits and inspections. Then comes the fire. And the insurance adjuster asks the fire department what they found in the ‘unfinished basement’ that started the conflagration. Sure enough, there’s electrical conduit (or just Romex) all over the place, along with the remains of interior walls, furniture, toilet, etc… And no permit or inspection saying that such additions were done correctly. You lose! The policy is void and you eat the entire loss.
Avoiding required permitting procedures is penny wise but pound foolish.
Plenty of basements have electrical/plumbing/drywall but aren’t finished and it’s really hard to prove when the improvements occurred. Unless it can be seen on an aerial photo (outbuildings and additions) it’s very hard for anyone to prove anything. If you’re thinking of spending 35K on this I would get the permits just so you can clearly realize and insure the added value. I’m just saying plenty of basements have been finished without permits and it eventually just works it’s way through the system without anyone caring.
My insurance company didn’t inspect my house when they insured it. They don’t know the state of the outlets or how many there are or who installed them or when they were installed. If it isn’t a one owner house does anyone really know which outlets were permitted and which aren’t? As long as you have a mortgage the insurance company really works for the bank and everyone has a pretty good incentive to replace the house with something of similar value.
NM
No, the insurance company works for its stockholders. It makes more profit whenever it doesn’t have to pay out a claim. It has no incentive to pay out big bucks to rebuild your house so you’ll be happy and the bank will have something to hold a mortgage on.
In most places (2018, US of A) houses are built according to locally defined building codes by licensed tradesmen and inspected by government agents. So to a great extent insurers can rely on some minimum standards and may not demand inspections. But older houses or houses with questionable provenance are routinely required to be inspected by licensed independent professionals before a bank will grant the mortgage or an insurer will write the policy.
OK. The main issue is the bathroom. Where I live, you must have a fan in every bathroom and GFCI outlets. We also have to have occupancy sensors on the main light switch, but that might just be CA. As for the large room, you need arc fault protected outlets (where I live, in CA).
But get the permit. It’ll be worth the peace of mind if nothing else.
Would replacing a toilet or vanity require a permit? I replaced my toilet and didn’t even think of such a thing and likewise I would not consider a vanity replacement requires one either.
Usually not, unless you are putting in new plumbing lines or adding fixtures.
And even then, it would likely be a conditional permit. Tradesmen buy them by the book and use them when appropriate instead of having to go hang around at the county office. For an electrician, it’s usually a matter of just peel-and-stick inside the panel box. We’re having our tub replaced with a walk-in shower and the plumber will have to replace the existing drain with a 2" drain and do some other miscellaneous piping changes, which only requires a conditional permit.
Yup.
True story: When my wife moved to this area, she was looking at houses in the 2400 sq. ft. range. We found one for her that was quite a bit bigger, but at a good price. One attractive feature was a very nice bonus room that had been an unfinished attic. It even had a wet bar. She proceeded.
Yup. Not a single permit had been pulled. Every bit of the electrical, plumbing, framing, and other work was unpermitted. The house inspector caught on first, and then the mortgage company, real estate agent, and everyone else said, “Whoa! Stop right there.” Turns out that this was the reason it was so reasonably priced…the owners had several offers that were all withdrawn when the lack of permits was discovered. As I recall, our agent actually demanded that the listing be changed to reflect its true (pre-renovation) square footage, since technically the attic was still “unfinished” and would have to be retroactively permitted prior to sale. I can’t comment on the legal issues here, but they were unanimous that we could/should not proceed. (The mortgage company just plain said, “No way.”)
We just walked away.
Was the work done by the homeowner or an amateur, and not to code? Or was it done well, by a competent worker, to code, but simply without permits? ISTM that the former would be more likely to draw the kind of attention you describe than the latter.
But that’s just the problem with non-permitted work. You can’t tell what the quality of it may be. Are you gonna dig up the floors or rip into the walls to assess the electrical, plumbing, or structural quality? Is all the wiring copper and of the correct gauge? Are gang boxes properly attached and grounded? Are the receptacles of decent quality or 29 cent imported crap? Are the pipes of proper size and material? Correctly connected? And “structural work” - ?!!?! Really?
Even competent, conscientious contractors can make mistakes, including big mistakes. Or overlook errors made by their subs. And even reasonably honest people may cut a corner here or there, especially when no one is looking over their shoulder. That’s why there are permits (to define a minimum standard) and inspections (to ensure those standards are adhered to).
Change out a toilet? Replace a ceiling fan? No permit needed. “Finish” an entire basement, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars? Permits! For your present and future protection.
The owner said it was done by “licensed contractors,” but we had no way of proving that or assessing the quality of the work. The owner said he had tried to get it permitted retroactively, but was advised that it would require some demolition in order to inspect the framing, floor, electrical, and plumbing work. The original listing called it an “800 sq. ft. bonus room” and this was what the agent demanded be removed from the listing.
One thing we DID notice was that the wall outlets were not spaced per NEC. That was probably a clue of sorts.