We’re going to be remodeling our bathrooms (all 3) soon and my wife and I are arguing about whether we need to get building permits. (For reference, we’re in San Jose, CA.)
Most of the work will be replacing existing features: new cabinets, counter tops, lights, new tile on the floor and in the shower enclosure, new toilets. We’ll be removing one bathtub and turning it into a shower-only. A little sheet rock work, texturing, and paint.
The shower enclosure will change the position of the drain (from one end to the center of the shower). The lighting may require a little electrical work. (Maybe moving the position of the junction box (is that the right term?) so that the new light can connect to it easily.)
We won’t be moving any walls, messing with the foundation, expanding the footprint of the house, or changing the floor plan in any way.
Do we need to get building permits? If so, why would we need them?
What are the advantages of getting them?
And what could happen if we don’t get them? Are there any penalties for not getting them?
Basically, I’m looking for
justification for the existence of building permits. Are they anything other than a way for local governments to raise money? And,
persuasive arguments for why getting permits is a good idea.
Help me explain building permits to my foreign-born wife and restore peace to our home.
It varies by state and locality. If you’re not doing anything structural, and it’s really all cosmetic, you sometimes don’t need to pull an overall permit. The plumber will usually need to/want to pull a specialized permit on their own, and the electrician possibly too.
The plumbing and electrical inspectors can narc on you if they see real structural work being done when they visit. Some towns around here also want specialty inspections, like an insulation inspection, especially if you mess with an outside wall.
Usually you can call the building department and they’ll tell you. Some towns** are **aggressive about wanting permits because of revenue. It also sometimes means unsafe conditions are avoided. One worry would be that your insurance company could refuse to cover a future loss if they find out there was work done without a permit. Even if it was unrelated to the cause of the loss.
Assuming you’re doing the work yourselves, you do get out of having to comply with the newest lead paint regulations, though I guess it’s less likely to be pre-1978 construction where you live.
And if you have a contractor doing the work, it is in your best interest to insist that they pull a permit if there’s any hint the building department wants you to have one.
They will increase your property taxes if you pull a permit for any big reno. You’re increasing the value of your home. Redoing a bathroom probably wouldn’t raise taxes. Adding a new bathroom would.
If you’re doing the work yourself then I wouldn’t pull a permit. Unless you’re modifying structure or doing a lot of plumbing changes. If you’re just changing out the fixtures, cabinet, tiling, and painting then a permit usually isn’t needed.
I won’t buy another house that’s had any changes to it unless I know for sure permits were pulled. I’ve had enough of other people’s DYI plumbing and electrical to last a life time.
DIY plumbing and electrical can be a pain, even if you’re not planning to sell (or buy), but I doubt if internal re-arrangements of the bathroom need planning permission.
I would say you should first check with your municipality, then if you are hiring ithe work done, what does your contractor say about pulling permits for minor electrical and plumbing work.
For your minor job would say nay. But if you are DIY it sounds like maybe you should get permits…or hire an expert.
WHich way does your wife lean in all this? San Jose has a historic district, I bet they are permit crazy.
I would say that in this case it’s marginal, so no. Mostly you are repairing & replacing existing stuff, not adding new stuff like a extra shower, toilet etc.
And, with SJ, it’s better not to ask. It’s not as bad as SF, sure, but it can take a while and be expensive.
But if you were adding new stuff, then yes you’d need a permit.
There’s many good reason for requiring a permit for major additions, such as making sure the work is done safely. This is critical for electrical work or gas lines, etc.
But also I have seen dudes add a bunch of bathrooms and turn the house into a flophouse rental, which changes the whole neighborhood.
Note that right nearby a worker died in a trench as the contractors had their permits pulled for safety reasons, but went on digging.
If you don’t get along with your neighbors, get a permit. All it takes is one pissed off neighbor calling the city to report you after seeing the work crews coming in and out of your house. It happened to a neighbor of mine who got crossways with his neighbor, the next thing he knew, he had a big orange stop work order pasted to his front door.
I agree with this in general. The OP says they are replacing the tub with a shower. This usually means that an increase in drain size is required. A plumber or electrician of any repute is going to have a permit for their work. They usually have a “book” of these to make it easier to pull one as needed. If you’re hiring some one-man operation, he’d better come with a lot of glowing recommendations. Also check to make sure he’s got a business license and insurance. I hired a guy like this to build my deck; while he was honest and sincere, he never pulled permits until our job. At that point he found out that he had been doing it wrong for 20 years.
When you sell your house, you want any work like that to be in accordance with city code. If the buyer’s inspector finds a problem with work you’ve had done, you’ll have to pay to have it corrected, which can get very expensive. Permitted and inspected work comes with paperwork that gets you off the hook.
If you’re supposed to get a permit, I get a permit. I’ve been told, and I’m not sure if this is true or not, that if you don’t get a permit when you were obligated to and something happens down the road, your homeowner’s insurance or manufacturer’s warranties may not pay for problems.
That seems logical, especially for the insurance. An electrical fire that can be even remotely linked to a bad installation would probably be grounds for refusing a claim. Same with a flood because the plumbing wasn’t inspected. Or a deck that collapses and injures somebody. Insurance companies are generally not in the business of approving or paying claims.
We live down the road in Santa Clara, and just had our master bathroom renovated. Our contractors got the permits, which was kind of a hassle. I think they had to schedule three separate inspections, I’m not sure why, or what particularly was being inspected - the shower pan, I think, and the electricity?
One annoying side issue - the city requires some things to be done a certain way. I mean, we had to have LED or fluorescent lights, there was a motion detector/timer switch required (which turned itself off a few times while I was in the shower! Had to have them adjust the period) and there was an issue with CO/smoke detectors - they’re now required to be wired in, and we only had battery operated? Something like that, anyway.
So, good to have, and we are planning on selling sometime in the future, so good to cover the bases there. But also annoying.
All my knowledge comes from watching Mike Holmes, so I’m pretty close to just guessing here, but I think you would need permits for that level of work. It’s not just cosmetic - you will be changing drains and doing plumbing and electrical and stuff.
We’re planning to put a bathroom in our basement - I’m afraid we’re going to need A LOT of permits, especially since it will probably involve enlarging a couple of teeny little windows in the foundation of the house (that’s a whole nother rant - who puts windows in a basement that are so tiny that no human being could squeeze out of them?).
And I’ve fixed a lot of work done by professional plumbers and electricians. The only time I opted for a professional I had to intervene to get it done right.
Building codes represent standards for structural electrical, and environmental safety. Inspections that result from the permit process enforce those standards.
Building code standards should be available from your local municipality. If you can’t do the work to those standards then the obvious solution is to find someone who can.
YMMV. We added a whole second kitchen 2 years ago. Totally rewired the area, moved plumbing around, moved the circuit box. Permits were required. And no, the city did not increase our property taxes because of it.
Yes, all those things, and other things like the minimum distance between the toilet, and either the tub/shower or the vanity. We had four different kinds of inspections: electrical, plumbing, structural, and drywall (they have to approve how many screws per foot or something). But the contractor took care of it all and it wasn’t really a hassle. Ours was a total gut job, and we moved the position of the toilet, so that’s why we needed structural, you may not need that. Definitely get plumbing and electrical permits and pass inspections, just for your peace of mind. Not to mention re-sale.
Roddy
Ditto on the compliance for insurance coverage. If the house burns down, won’t you be unhappy with reimbursement for the old bathroom?
Ditto on future re-sale value. A friend has just listed her home for sale, and the pre-sale homeowner inspection revealed that major electrical work had been done by the previous owner without a permit, and it was not up to code. She and her husband will have to put out about $2500 to get that fixed.
The guy at town hall told me- “If we can’t see it from the street driving by, then you don’t need a permit”. And “If it’s a repair to something existing, and we can see it, you don’t need a permit”.
So I got a permit for the new fence, and jacked up the house and fixed the foundation without a permit. Now, I won’t tell you about everything we’ve done inside the house without permit. A farmhouse built in 1800 needs tons of work done every year.
I even installed a pellet stove by myself, and all the insurance company wanted was a letter stating that I followed the manufacturer’s recommendations for clearances, etc. No inspection was needed.
Vermont is a weird place… I’m glad I don’t live where some of you do and have to jump through the hoops and pay all kinds of money, etc.
