Bathroom remodel - how on earth?!?

We’ve owned our house for 9 years now. It’s the first place we’ve owned.

A couple of weeks ago the shower door in the master bath broke. One door will slide and the other will not.

As we discussed how best to proceed, we began talking about my husband’s longstanding wish to have a big soaker bathtub. The master bath has a nice big shower and the guest bath has tub/shower combo that is too shallow and too short for my 6’ 4" husband to adequately soak and relax. To be honest he looks ridiculous when he tries to take a bubble bath.

So, a master bath remodel is now on the table.

Never having done any remodel of any sort before we don’t know how to proceed.

Do we need an architect? A designer? Just a contractor?
For any of those, how do we go about finding them? (our neighbors recently finished their 3rd floor so I will start by asking who they used and how they feel about both the project as it unfolded and the end result).

Who here has done a bathroom remodel? Please share the good, the bad & the ugly about your experience.

Some details which might help you in your musings about our project:

  1. I think I should sacrifice a small amount of the master bedroom by moving a wall (and a closet) so that my closet is accessed via the bedroom instead of the bathroom.

  2. Moving that wall will let us put a fairly large tub in the master bath.

  3. Moving the shower is an option, as is leaving the shower where it is and adding the tub where my closet currently sits.

  4. We really really do not want to move the toilet.

  5. The “master suite” is the third floor former attic, so we can’t expand the usable space all the way to the outside wall without lifting the roof which we don’t plan to do.

  6. I won’t give up having a dedicated shower, so a replacing the shower with a shower/tub combo is not an option.

I drew a picture (not very good and scale is iffy) just to give an idea of the layout. I’m not asking you to redesign the bath for us, I promise! The file is on Dropbox so it might ask if you want to login or create an account but you can skip that and view anyway.

Use your computer or graph paper and get the room dimensions and appliances dimensions correct to start with. The pipes all have to run somewhere, you have to make sure they will be accessible, so not moving the toilet especially is a good idea. Pipes for the sink and shower will have to run through the walls. Before moving a wall you have to know if it’s load bearing, and if you’ve never done wall construction before you need to look into that a little more, but it’s not all that difficult if it’s not a load bearing wall. If it is load bearing you will need a good contractor, and possibly need to consult an engineer depending on the house design.

I don’t understand the crawl spaces on either side, do you just mean there’s crawl space under the entire house?

Thanks for the (first round? :smiley: ) of input!

The crawl space is under the eaves - the master suite is a third floor converted attic.

According to a couple of people I know “in the biz” the only load bearing walls on the third floor are the external walls. The internal wall I want to move is not original - it was added in 2004 when the attic was converted to living space. The attic had no internal walls until then. Even the knee wall separating the living space from the crawl space is non-load-bearing (which I suppose makes it not a true knee wall?).

Ok, is that crawl space usable? You shouldn’t need full height over a tub, sinks and toilet. If you’re going to do construction you should go for all the space you can get.

Moving a toilet is not fun, but maybe not to tough depending on where the drain stack is. In your picture things look a little spread out, but maybe because it’s only a rough drawing. You should get your dimensions straight, bathrooms don’t need much open space.

How big is your shower there now? If you’re getting in the big tub you can just put a shower in that, or replace it with a smaller shower.

I’m in the final couple weeks of a large renovation which included creating a new master bath and walk-in closet for our “master suite” on the 2nd floor and a new guest bath on the same floor. This was a fairly large project involving removing the original bathroom and converting that into a pass-thru walk-in closet off the master bedroom to a new master bath. A second guest bath was also added on the 2nd floor. Doorways had to be removed, new entry ways had to be added, and new interior walls built. For both bathrooms there was no existing plumbing that could be re-used so all new plumbing. All new electrical wiring and an upgrade to our electrical panels also was required. All this in a historic home that was built around 1883. :smiley:

Some key features to give you an understanding of the scope:

[ul]
[li]Walk-in closet with custom built-in cabinetry on both sides.[/li][li]Master Bath with water closet, 7x4 shower with marble walls and shower heads on each side, and a frameless glass entry, free-standing tub (Bain Ultra), double vanity, and marble floors extending through the master bathroom and the walk-in closet.[/li][li]Guest Bath with vanity/sink, shower/tub combo, toilet, and washer/dryer (2nd floor laundry).[/li]Total square footage impacted is about 750 square feet of a 1500 square foot 2nd floor.
[/ul]

We are now in week 16 of what was originally planned as an 8 week project. We are using a local home renovation company for all of the work - soup to nuts they do it all.

We started with an architect to create drawings of the existing space and then based upon our wants/needs/must-haves he created several floor plan layouts for us to review. From these we selected the layout we liked the best. The architect then created additional drawings showing electrical, plumbing, etc. We lucked out in that we have a friend who is an architect and agreed to do this as a side-job for a reasonably low fee. Hiring an actual architectural firm would have cost us thousands more.

With the architect plans, we then engaged with about 10 different contractors/renovation firms to solicit bids. We located these providers in a variety of ways; referrals from friends, Google searches, driving around neighborhoods where gentrification and renovation is common and looking for yard signs of contractors, etc. We had a pretty big range of bids ($40K to $150K) and I have to say that in hindsight the low bids were nowhere near realistic. We also requested and checked references for each contractor that we considered a possiblity. At the end of the day we selected the contractor that we felt was best able to handle a job of this size and whose estimate seemed to be at least grounded in reality. Once selected, we signed a fixed-bid contract and the work began. The contractor is responsible for all work defined in the contract, obtaining permits, and scheduling appropriate inspections (framing, insulation, electrical, plumbing, etc.)

We never had a designer per se. We do have a friend who is an interior designer and we would run a few ideas by him for input that helped. But for the most part we designed everything ourselves from selecting the tile, designing the custom cabinetry, wall paint colors, fixtures, etc. It sucked, it was daunting, and we felt very out of our element even with some occasional assistance from our designer friend. We did a lot of online research looking at images of bathrooms and closets to find ideas we liked and wanted to incorporate. For the closet cabinetry we actually scheduled a meeting with a national company and their designer came up with our a plan including specification/drawings. Of course we didn’t use them for the final product but it gave us what we needed to show our cabinet maker what we were thinking. In hindsight we made some small design mistakes that although correctable are also something we ca live with. I would have much preferred it to be like I see on t.v., a designer with a gee-whiz iPad app shows me a 3-d rendering of what they propose and I agree and by the end of the 2nd commercial break everything is done!

What to expect… well, expect the project to run a lot longer than originally quoted. If it stays on target then great but that certainly does not seem to be the norm. I would also look for a fixed bid and get them to detail EVERYTHING in EXCRUCIATING detail in their bid. Each line item of work to be done with the associated cost.

Expect that once hammers start hitting walls you’ll discover complications that will add costs and time to the project. We found a structural issue that had to be addressed that added a couple thousand dollars. We also had scope creep, things that we didn’t think about when looking at paper or thought were really good may not translate to reality well. So expect changes had to be made out of necessity or because you changed your mind and wanted to do tweak something differently.

Expect to live in a mess for awhile. Our work crew have been awesome about containing demo/construction mess but no matter how much they do there will still be a mess.

Expect frustrations! Extra costs, extra time, unforeseen complications and complications caused by incompetence (we have had the worst plumber in history on this job!), things done wrong that have to be redone (again, the plumber). “Things” happen and keeping a level head and being firm in what you want will be needed. And sometimes you just have to be the use the “Bitch Homeowner” card to get things done.

…and hopefully as you near the end of the project you can expect to be excited to see what started as a vision in your head of what you want become tangible and real. I walk through all the new spaces several times a day just looking at stuff and seeing how it is coming together and it makes me feel really good. And my wife cannot wait to use her new free standing soaker tub or for us to be able to shower together without bumping into each other constantly.

Plan on it taking twice as long, twice as messy and twice as expensive that you expect. Be happy if everything comes in at only twice what you planned.

Leaving the toilet where it is is good - they’re usually the most difficult and most expensive thing to move in a house thanks to their 6" drain.

If all of the walls are non load-bearing, have fun with the layout and feel free to blow out or move walls. Dropbox is inaccessible to me, but if you haven’t already thought of it, the space behind the knee walls can be used for storage if it’s deep enough.

Go tub shopping if you haven’t already done so. There are plenty of options in the 72" size family - a traditional tub is 60." You didn’t say if you wanted one, but a lot of the big tubs are also whirlpools.

And bonus points for not being hung up on whether or not shrinking a closet, having a tub and separate shower, etc. will affect your resale value.

We technically did two, a powder room and the main bathroom in the house (built in 1974). In the home layout, they’re right next to each other. Initially we were thinking about taking out the wall between them and making it one bigger bathroom. We got a few estimates for moving the plumbing how we wanted and they were insane, so we left that alone. We did all the work ourselves with help from my father-in-law, stripped everything down to the studs and joists, and then put nice new stuff in. I think we spent a little north of seven thousand, which was still several thousand dollars cheaper than the estimates to just move the plumbing. I honestly have no idea how they came up with those numbers. I guess my advice would be to figure out how much you’re willing to spend before you even get started, and ask for estimates with options broken out.

(It’s like the time the a guy tried to give me a “great deal” on replacement windows. Wanted $18,000 to replace ten windows. $18,000!!! I was like, dude, I know how much windows cost, I know how long they take to put in, and I can guess what you are paying your guys. You are crazy. Some people must say yes, which is depressing.)

We remodelled our bathroom after we bought our house. We hired a design/build firm. We found them just by calling places in the Yellow Pages, asking for bids and references. It turned out very well. The house was built in the 50’s/60’s, has a colonial revival exterior but the floor plan of the upstairs had the mindset common in the 1960’s that only one person would need to use the master bathroom at a time. So it was tiny and crammed into a tiny space between the (ironically larger) guest bathroom and the front exterior wall with two windows. It was a toilet, tiny shower and one sink/vanity.

Here are some highlights, lowlights from our experience.

Highlights

We went into it with the modest ambition to just add a two-person vanity, a bath and a larger shower. We didn’t care if the bath and shower were combined or separate. Over the course of the project, simply by dealing with the space constraints we ended up with a large soaker tub separate from a large shower, two spacious vanities/sinks, and the toilet.

The bedroom was very large but had a crappy closet tucked behind a non-load-bearing wall between the room and the bathroom. We took over a tiny 4th bedroom and converted it to the closet and were able to put the new shower and soaker tub where the closet used to be. That left the entire space between the windows and the other bathroom for the toilet and vanities.

There also used to be a little mini-closet next to the closet used for a “lady’s vanity” that sucked, so we replaced it with a built-in cabinet for linen storage. It’s across from the soaker tub, so is perfect.

Lowlights

Cost overruns. It will happen, so just set your hard budget limit somewhat low to allow for some scope creep. But don’t let your project get completely out of hand and bankrupt you. The parts that really caught us by surprise were the sub-contractors, but it was more because of the way the GC communicated between us and them. For example, when he told us to review the plans for where the electrical outlets, light fixtures and switches would go, he said at that time he just needed a general idea and we would nail them down later. But when “later” came, the electrical sub said that our final decisions were change orders and therefore cost extra.

Other things contribute to scope creep that you can’t avoid. In our case we discovered a new (since the house was built) local building code that a wired-into-the-house smoke detector was required inside every bedroom and hallway. That one is a good idea so we didn’t mind at all, but it did cost a little more and wasn’t something we planned for. (They had to install detectors even in rooms that weren’t part of the remodel.)

Also watch out for the plumbing fixture choices. I don’t know how to avoid this, but what happened to us was that the finishes we chose are expensive and hard to find. They’re “oiled bronze” finish in one of the Kohler suites, and later we discovered that replacement parts in that suite were exhorbitant and that finish was hard to find or even match in other manufacturers finishes. Maybe a good rule is to stick with simple chrome, brushed, gold, or plain bronze finishes.

First things first. You need to establish a budget and keep a 15% contingency fund.

Then you need a list of must-haves and would-likes. Focus on the necessities and remember you can always upgrade fixtures and finishes later.

Depending on the budget, timelines, and how handy you are, you may or may not want a general contractor. A designer is optional. You won’t need an architect but structural engineer may be required depending on the scope of work.

A good plumber and a good tile guy are necessities for a bathroom reno.

Do your research. Contact multiple contractors for showings then check all references, and go to several past or present job sites and get feedback from other clients. You want to ask about meeting deadlines, quality of work, costs, guarantees, insurance, etc. 

Make sure to ask about how other customers found their contractor. You’d be surprised how many may be friends or family trying to help them out.

That looks like a good idea. Depending on your space, you could also simply build a new closet on the bedroom side of the wall without moving it.

Sure, I would avoid corner tubs though as they take up a lot of space.

I wouldn’t rule out any possibilities because you will be limiting how you can optimize the space.

What is the height of the knee wall?

Adding a dormer to increase the head space is not difficult and should always be a consideration. Think of the nice nook with a window you could create for a bathtub.

If you have the space I would agree.

You will need a scale drawing. You can cut out paper shapes and rearrange them in the space quickly to get an idea of what it might look like.

Also, it’s possible to save some money by doing parts of the job yourself, but be VERY sure they are things you can do. Don’t do the electrical work unless you’re a licensed electrician, for example. We saved some on our remodel by doing our own painting because we’re pretty good interior house painters (hubby and I). If you want to do this, ask your GC at the beginning of the project, like in the bidding stage. Some are cool with this, others feel like it reflects badly on them if you do a shitty job. So that may also be one criteria to help you choose the build firm.

We also suggested helping them with demo, but they declined that. I suspect the risk of us getting hurt and impacting their insurance was the reason. But they were more than happy to let us do the painting. Our contract spelled out that they’d do the drywall work up to “paint ready” and we took over the work from there. (It’s helpful to know the contracting code words. Paint ready means they install the drywall, tape the joints, sand and wipe the dust off so that there are no marks when you take over and do the primer and paint.)

My mother had her very small master bathroom redone and she used a local general contractor for the job. The contractor has a designer on staff who helped her with color and tile selection. So no architect was involved. But in this case, no walls or fixtures were moved. The sink, toilet and shower enclosure stayed in the same spot. It came out very nice.

I love that people are suggesting we could do parts of the work ourselves.
I am 0% handy and have less than 0 willingness to learn how to do the work, and watching my husband learn stuff and do some or all of the work would mean divorce. I know myself too well after all these years to not contract out all the work. :slight_smile:

The current bathroom is pretty huge. Lots of open floor space and the two of us use it simultaneously all the time. The shower is juuuust baaarely too small to comfortably shower together but we do it anyway sometimes. I’m not sure if we’d want a tub big enough for two because I kind of hate baths - it’s something we’ll need to discuss and decide.

And affect on resale value? Meh. We plan to die in this house (hopefully not anytime soon). Our heirs can roll their eyes over our choices when they deal with the estate.

It was built in 1910 so I know the lower floors hold some interesting secrets behind the horsehair plaster. It will be interesting to find out how those secrets affect work done on the 2004-vintage third floor.

We don’t want to move the toilet because it is directly above the soil stack, as are all the other toilets in the house. We’re not moving the poop.

I’m with you on this one. Neither myself nor my wife are particularly skilled in this type of work. We initially planned to do the painting ourselves but ended up having it added to the work performed by the contractor.

Our freestanding tub is for one person. Two could fit but why? Our new shower on the other hand… 7 foot long by 4 foot wide and 10 foot ceilings… we could host a few friends in there and still have room. Definitely consider expanding this space if it is an option.

I’d slightly disagree here. Our project for the new bathrooms is also in our “forever home” but I’ve been around long enough to know life throws you curve balls. You don’t want to be upside down or have a house that is not comparable to the other homes in the neighborhood just in case. We fell comfortable that even with the investment we’ve made in the renovations we are still in a position where if we sold we’d make money.

Hooray for old homes! I love them and yes, you’ll discover all kinds of crazy things as you demo out the old stuff. We’ve had several moments where we scratched our heads and wondered WTF someone was thinking when they did “that”.

Move the toilet, it’s really not that big of a deal in most cases. Besides, YOU aren’t moving it. You’re paying contractors to move the poop. :slight_smile:

tl;dr

Did 3 baths in a house built with one. Yes, creative.

FIRST THING!!!
Watch where you put the tub - water is heavy - a full tub + a 6’4" body = a LOT
Make sure the tub is DIRECTLY over a load-bearing wall.

If you can’t ID a load-bearing wall, get someone in there who can.

If you can operate (safely) a chop saw, nail gun (or hammer), drill with screwdriver bit and know how to cut sheetrock, a bath CAN be a DIY - but there will be a huge learning curve as you lay out supply pipes (copper - learn how to ‘sweat’ the fittings nd use a tubing cutter on pipe) and DWV (start by finding out what that means) - your code may require cast iron - you will probably want to hire that part out.

I would re-orient the toilet 90 deg clockwise. It takes up too much space they way it is now. See if you can put the tub under the window. If you plan to use the tub a lot, it’s nice to have it in that location.

You don’t need an architect, but get a good contractor. Use someone that friends recommend. A designer will save you a lot of headache by helping you with tile, colors, cabinet style, etc. You will need to submit plans to get a permit, so you need someone to draw them up. You may even meed a structural engineer if you are moving bearing walls. Talk to the building department in your town to see.

Consider adding a skylight above the vanity. Windows are great, but there is NOTHING like natural light from above.

Do NOT do this as a DIY project unless you have done it several times before. You don’t want to learn how to lay tile in your own house!! Let skilled tradesmen do the work. If you DIY, and you don’t know what you’re doing, it’s going to look like it.

Over the past couple of years we just gutted and redid a 3 bedroom house, including 2.5 baths.

Whether you go with a designer or not depends on your budget, and how much you want to make a ton of decisions, and how capable you are at designing things. We went with a design build firm for our kitchen and main bathroom. It was pricey, but they look incredible. Really easy to tell someone, “We like modern brushed nickel fixtures” and she gives you several options. Instead of you searching the internet and countless stores. Then you say which you like best and she gives you more similar options. Multiply that times fixtures, cabinetry, lighting, tile, doors, hardware…

Another thought - consider your preferences vs what someone tells you is best for resale. My wife and I expect to move out of this house in a couple of boxes, and don’t need to worry about increasing resale value. So we did things however the hell we wanted. If we were planning on moving soon and money were tight, we might have done things differently.

Since it is just the 2 of us, we enlarged the main bathroom by borrowing one of 2 closets in the adjoining bedroom. So now that bedroom has only 1 closet. That bath is off the hallway - we do not have an “en suite”. But like I said, it is just the 2 of us, and we don’t care.

Sorry, I didn’t look at your pic, but if you have the bedroom/closet space to give up, go ahead. Think carefully how big a bedroom and closet you need. How many bubble baths does the big guy take, and how much closet space do you want to give up for them? How much tile are you willing to clean (or do you have a maid?)

If adding the tub is a big concern, consider whether it would work to put a bigger tub in the 2d bathroom. I mean, how many tubs do you need/want? Depending on the other bathroom, you might be able to simply replace that tub, for far less than reworking your master. Just a thought. We have one deep tub (but not a huge whirlpool or anything.) That is in the main bath. Our second bath has a shower only. And the third is just a powder room.

You are going to want to go with a licensed plumber and electrician - not just a handyman. Tile is another area in which it helps to have a pro. I bet I’d be pretty near 100% at being able to tell whether a kitchen or bath had the tile work done by a dedicated tile guy or a handyman.

Tile is expensive. Consider how much tile you want on how many walls. Can mean thousands of $. And shopping for tile at the big boxes can be a royal pain.

You probably do not need an architect. The best source of “recommendations” is friends/neighbors near you who have homes/rooms you like. Can also ask the village/city permitting department which contractors they see a lot of and do not have any issues with. Which contractors do you see a lot of signs for in your neighborhood? Or, just call people and ask for quotes. One infuriating thing will be when you see how difficult it can be to get someone to give you a quote. Some folk will think your job too big, others too small. But our experience was that we might have a list of 5 plumbers, and only 2 will even return our calls. Weird. Also, once you decide upon one tradesperson, ask them who they work with often whose work you like. And - here’s the kicker - no matter who you choose and how much you pay, I’ll bet there is SOMETHING you don’t like about the relationship! :smack:

I put tile in all the baths and the kitchen.

30 years later, the tile is solid and there has never been a hint of mildew/mold.

That is because I shopped at professional supply stores and paid the price.

Those who use big box materials are setting themselves up for a ton of grief - it is like paint, only 20x the effect: Given the labor involved, using the cheap stuff which lasts 10-15 years is insane. Good paint, properly applied, should last a minimum of 30 years.
With tile: the good stuff will last generations. The cheap stuff? Ask me about the crap used here for both floor and counter - it is chipped, broken, and crumbling - one tile had had something dropped on it and the entire tile shattered - it came out in about 100 pieces.

Do not use cheap tile. Do not use cheap sealer (the biggest cause of mildew). Do not use cheap grout (second biggest cause of mildew).

Tile can be set in either mastic (NOT the cheap stuff) or mortar - mastic can be DIY; mortar is not a DIY - always hire a good pro - you don’t want your project to be some person’s OJT assignment.

based on your drawing you wouldn’t have to move any pipes or drains. If the water/drains for the tub are on the cabinet side then pull the closet wall down. If they’re on the closet side then rip the cabinet out.

If you’re doing this yourself then the easiest would be a 2 piece tub enclosure. You probably can’t get a one piece in due to the size involved.

Moving the wall is nothing. It’s down in 5 minutes. stick building another one is an afternoon.

If you know someone who does this kind of work on the side it’s an easy remodel. Depending on where you live it may not require any permits. All you’re doing is replacing what’s there. This would be a good time to add GFI outlets.

Pretty much anywhere in the US, when you’re redoing plumbing you need a permit. Especially if you’re adding a plumbing fixture. This is your master bath. Don’t treat it like you’re building a playhouse for the kids in the back yard.

The guest bath won’t accommodate a bigger tub, unfortunately. It’s 1910 sized, as are the contiguous 2 bedrooms. I can’t imagine how anyone stuffed a family of 8 into this place before the attic was finished.

Since the 3rd floor is “brand new” it’s got wiring and plumbing that meets 2004 standards. GFCI outlets, the requisite number of them, etc. So we’re golden there.

And living in Massachusetts we have to file permits to mow the lawn, so I’ll be hiring people willing to file all those on our behalf.

Keep the advice coming!!!