Battle Ground - Dresden Files (Open spoilers)

[Omniscient]

@MaxTheVool

(3) I liked how Butters’s sword worked, but it seemed to be different from how it was described last book. If it’s harmless to humans, then why would it hurt (but not amputate) Harry when he was in a homicidal rage? Homicidal rages are, sadly, entirely human. It did seem to be more like “harms the evil, aids the good” regardless of species, although I don’t remember if we specifically saw it being used against one of the human mercenaries

We have to allow that in Peace Talks, Harry, Michael and Butters might be wrong about the new sword. They landed on a theory that there’s an angel inside the sword and that angels can’t act against mortal free will. As I read it, there’s 2 possibilities: they were wrong and the sword is a lot more nuanced, it can discern the difference between evil intent even when confronting a mortal, or it burned Harry because it was the Winter Mantle and it’s non-mortal fae power that it cut and not Harry himself. I prefer the latter theory since that would better explain the burn versus the amputation. That the sword is smart enough to wound to the degree of the evilness of a mortals actions is a bit too much for me.

@MaxTheVool

(5) Do we know if Harry told anyone/everyone about Marcone? He learned two massive revelations in quick succession (Marcone and Justine) and we didn’t on-screen see him tell anyone about either one, which makes me nervous, although everyone seemed to know about Justine at the

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

As for whether others know that Marconi is Denarian: was that the point of Dresden calling him Sir Marconi in front of the council? As soon as Dresden did that, Mab said something like, “That explains a lot.” I don’t know exactly what the implication was, but it sure seemed like Dresden was revealing Marconi’s supernatural powers with that “Sir.”

I didn’t put this together at the time, but my sense is that LHOD is correct here. I can’t think of any other reason why he’d emphasize the “Sir” there if not to communicate that he’s a Knight of the Blackened Denarius. Dresden doesn’t often refer to them as Knights, but they have been called that before. Mab I’m pretty sure would keep it a secret, but I’d be a bit surprised that she couldn’t sense it on her own. I’m going to assume that Harry, Michael, Sanya, Butters, Mab and Molly will probably be the only ones who know at the start of the next book.

@MaxTheVool

One question for the more hard core of you: I thought something had happened that totally changed Bob. Wasn’t he involved in some re-homing where he ended up in a different skull with a totally different personality, something involving Lasciel? Or am I conflating things?

You could be referring to a few things. Bob splitting off his “evil” half which ultimately became it’s own dark spirit from Ghost Story. Bob’s personality didn’t really change, but he’s now got a new enemy out there. Also in Cold Days Bob communicates his worry that if anyone (Mab) were to come after him he needed a “safe house” of sorts. In exchange for knowledge of how to kill an immortal Harry promises to make Bob a second back-up skull that he can retreat to if needed. Harry made it, but it was a pretty crappy place compared to Bob’s mansion of a skull. Harry ends up needing to give it to Bonea once she gets freed from his head, so right now Bob doesn’t really have a backup anymore. Harry probably still owes him one.

@MaxTheVool

(1) After the big deal made last book about “this will never be kept a secret, it’s too big, everything will change” I was pretty disappointed at yet another “government covers it up with some insane story about terrorism”. I was really hoping that the next few books would deal with the fallout of the magical world totally and openly interacting with the mortal world… but it seems like any such will be limited to just Chicago.

It’s a fair concern, but I wouldn’t give up hope yet. We know that some people are ignoring it and are focused on just grieving/rebuilding, but we also know that it’s now under the spotlight for a bunch of new people. The CPD isn’t going to go back to the way they were, the SI department will probably get staffed back up again. Dresden’s bannermen will be out there as will Marcone’s. The Paranetters won’t be hiding under a rock anymore. The Librarians will probably become a major player.

When Harry said “everyone’s gonna know” he didn’t know about the MIBs or Librarians, and him forcing the Accords to do reparations probably helped people bury their heads a bit. I suspect we’ll learn that events like this have happened before and the MIB have a pretty good playbook to manage the fallout.

Also, if my theory above about Dresden creating his own little army of mortals and mortal-friendly monsters is anywhere close to true, there will certainly end up being a force of in-the-know people unlike we’ve seen before. We may also see squads of roving mortal vigilantes out there hunting down monsters and the like. Could put independent talents like the werewolves and Mort in a bunch of trouble.

@MaxTheVool

(2) Probably my biggest gripe: so it turns out that the US government, in the form of the Library of Congress (wtf?) has known about the supernatural all along, and somehow no one has ever mentioned this to Harry in all of the insane stuff that has happened to him and everything he has been involved with? What were these librarians doing up until now if not investigating Harry?

If there’s anything we know, it’s that wizards and sidhe alike DO NOT SHARE INFORMATION. I think it’s very defensible that there’s a secret governmental agency out there working against the magic world. Harry encountered Tilly and Denton and the Hexenwolves in earlier books so there’s already been some FBI guys at least partially clued in. Clearly the White Council doesn’t trust Harry, so I see no reason that they’d tip Harry off.

I also dig that it’s the Library of Congress too. It’s weird…but that makes it more fun. Would have been dull for it to be the DoD or NSA or something. Plus there’s a little bit of symmetry with the Archive being a major force.

@MaxTheVool

(3) As I mentioned in another thread, it’s one thing for the White Council to say “having one of our members who is a sworn vassal of Mab is unacceptable, we can’t have fighting allegiances like that”. Its another to kick Harry out immediately after he won a massive victory, powered up immensely, might have the eye, is grieving his dead lover; and do so in a particularly harsh and antagonistic fashion. They easily could have said “hey, we can’t let you be on the white council, but we will continue to support you informally, you still have friends here, yada yada yada”. Even if they were lying they could have said that. (Granted maybe whoever is making those decisions is malicious/possessed).

Agree on this one. It’s a bit of a Butcher trope that people act hostile in completely non-proportional ways to people who are ostensibly allies. Murphy was a psycho to Dresden because he kept secrets. Eb was a lunatic about Thomas. Ramirez is being a lunatic because Harry is holding back. Now the White Council going super-antagonistic is pretty much in line with how Butcher sets up conflict between mortals. It all falls under the author’s desire torture Harry at every turn, if people were moderate and reasonable things would be too easy for Harry. But yeah…it gets tiresome.

@MaxTheVool

(5) Did anything come of the whole “reality is falling about and weird things will happen” thing?

Only thing I noticed was the supercharged spell energy for Harry, but I’m not sure that’s directly related.

@MaxTheVool

(6) Where was Ferrovax the whole time?

Basically he was securing the ways and the underground. Preventing the Fomor and Ethniu from attacking their flanks by popping up anywhere they wanted. Ensuring that the good guys could focus their lines on the lakefront. There was a mention that if Ferrovax were to take the field then reality would definitely fracture, so it was the best use of his power.

@MaxTheVool

(7) Finally, I’m a little puzzled by what Justine/Nemesis’s plan was from the beginning. So Nemesis has occupied Justine, and wants to get to Demonreach. (Side note: once Harry realizes that she is possessed, on the boat, shouldn’t he not say anything and go with her to Demonreach, on which he has absolutely insane power and control and intellectus, and then just imprison her and sort it out later?) So it (Nemesis) in some way convinces Thomas to attack the svartelves? But how? Revealing itself to Thomas? If so, why wouldn’t Thomas immediately and verbosely tell Harry everything? If Nemesis’s entire plan only worked if Thomas (a) survived the attack but (b) was badly enough hurt not to be able to communicate in full words and © was precisely so badly wounded that the only way to heal him was to put him on demonreach, then that’s a pretty sketchy plan. Plus of course there’s a fair chance that Harry will then die in the Ethniu invasion, in which case, sorry, no demonreach.

I thought he/she said something that basically translated to “chaos is a ladder”. The plan wasn’t to create this exact outcome, but it was to generate a giant shit show and find opportunities. Harry is Starborn, Harry is the warden of Demonreach and Harry is the Winter Knight. Three things that are really really important to the outsiders, so finding a way to get close to Harry and manipulate him makes all the sense in the world. Justine is a pretty good tool considering Harry’s habit of going a bit off the reservation both for family and for damsels in distress. Maybe Harry gets killed by Ethniu, maybe he takes Justine to Demonreach, maybe Harry gets her close to Mab, it’s all about creating opportunities. It wasn’t really a plan.

My theory is that He Who Walks Beside wanted to accomplish a few things. He wanted discord within the Accords. So he needed to get a couple signatories at each others throats. He wanted to infiltrate the White Court. He wanted Harry out from the protection of the Svartalves. He wanted Harry out of the White Council. He needed Harry highly distracted. Thomas’ attack accomplished all of that in one stroke. In his speech at the end he basically confirms that even without landing on Demonreach he’s still already won…the terror and the chaos already created is enough to ensure Empty Night. Getting on Demonreach was just another gambit, it wasn’t the “plan”. It was a nice to have.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Finally, I’m rereading The Two Towers , and it begins with a one-page synopsis of Fellowship of the Rings . WHY DON’T ALL BOOKS IN SERIES BEGIN WITH A SYNOPSIS OF PREVIOUS BOOKS? This is the best thing ever.

Not sure it would work that well for something with 15+ previous stories. One of the annoying things about the books is that he constantly needs to write in a short bio of every character for the weirdo who picks up book 16 without having read any of the previous ones. Butters is a twerp, magic can’t violate physics, Mab and Lara are the most beautiful beings ever, Karrin is small but fierce, the swords and denarians etc… I’m sure the editors force all that on him, but it always elicits an eye roll from me. Yet, with so many characters and so much mythology no synopsis could possibly cover it all.

LOTR is actually one book too, so the summary is a bit more essential when you are publishing sections separately.

[MaxTheVool]

@Omniscient

If there’s anything we know, it’s that wizards and sidhe alike DO NOT SHARE INFORMATION. I think it’s very defensible that there’s a secret governmental agency out there working against the magic world. Harry encountered Tilly and Denton and the Hexenwolves in earlier books so there’s already been some FBI guys at least partially clued in. Clearly the White Council doesn’t trust Harry, so I see no reason that they’d tip Harry off.

I also dig that it’s the Library of Congress too. It’s weird…but that makes it more fun. Would have been dull for it to be the DoD or NSA or something. Plus there’s a little bit of symmetry with the Archive being a major force.

Eh… think about it this way. Assume that there are these MiB librarians who work for the US government and know about and investigate the supernatural. Will we then be able to go back and reread the entire series and there will never be a place where we’re like “jesus, where the hell are the librarians”? Did they not show up when Harry resurrected a T Rex and when running around downtown Chicago? Did they not show up when a satellite was pulled down out of orbit? Are they not interested in Demonreach? If they weren’t investigating Harry, what WERE they investigating this entire time? Did none of them ever contact Murphy? Butters? Were they busy the entire time with the even MORE frequent and life-threatening supernatural events constantly threatening, say, Denver?

One of my biggest gripes about the series is how truly unbelievable it is that the mortal world would remain ignorant of the supernatural world, given how god damn much supernatural stuff there is all over the place. How many times must demons and vampires and magic users have been caught on security cameras? Etc. And there’s been this ongoing preachy little “people refuse to believe anything that isn’t jammed down their throat” runner in Harry’s thoughts. And now it’s going to turn out that everything we thought we knew about what the mortal world knew was wrong, and basically all the main characters but Harry knew about it all along?

I’m (ironically) skeptical.

[MaxTheVool]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

WHY DON’T ALL BOOKS IN SERIES BEGIN WITH A SYNOPSIS OF PREVIOUS BOOKS? This is the best thing ever.

Really, these days books should come with a link to a page on the author’s website with a spoiler-free summary. So you can read it if you want, or skip it if you don’t.

[Alessan]

The big question is, to me, where does the series go from here?

Because there are reportedly still another 8 books to go (5 standalones and one trilogy), and Butcher has already done his big, epic, all-hands-on-deck, Avengers Endgame-portal-scene battle; he won’t do it again. So what will he end the series with instead?

My guess? There’s going to be a slow descent into tragedy, a war of attrition in which the good guys will lose. Before we reach the end of the last book, we’re going to see the fall, one by one, of the White Court, Demonreach, One-Eye, the Knights, the White Council and even Winter and Summer, until all that’s left will be Harry Dresden standing alone against Nemesis and the Outsiders, fighting for the fate of the universe. We’re in for a rough ride, folks.

[Omniscient]

@MaxTheVool

Eh… think about it this way. Assume that there are these MiB librarians who work for the US government and know about and investigate the supernatural. Will we then be able to go back and reread the entire series and there will never be a place where we’re like “jesus, where the hell are the librarians”? Did they not show up when Harry resurrected a T Rex and when running around downtown Chicago? Did they not show up when a satellite was pulled down out of orbit? Are they not interested in Demonreach? If they weren’t investigating Harry, what WERE they investigating this entire time? Did none of them ever contact Murphy? Butters? Were they busy the entire time with the even MORE frequent and life-threatening supernatural events constantly threatening, say, Denver?

I think you have a different idea about what their charter is. My take is that they are not so much investigating or fighting the paranormal, but are primarily responsible for keeping things under wraps. The Librarians, i.e. the repository for written knowledge and popular publications, make sense because they could be controlling what stories get published, which get recorded for posterity and which get suppressed. They will have relationships with newspapers and TV stations to file their stories and could be using those relationships to monitor what’s going on and influencing the slant on them. The MIBs are there to respond when a story can’t be controlled through influence.

So they maybe aren’t the mortal force opposing the supernatural, they are the mortal force keeping it from creating mass hysteria. And if so, they wouldn’t be likely to be involved in the action and wouldn’t be doing any more than keeping a file on Harry. Hell, we may learn that they have something to do with The Larry Fowler Show’s discrediting and harassing Harry.

@MaxTheVool

One of my biggest gripes about the series is how truly unbelievable it is that the mortal world would remain ignorant of the supernatural world, given how god damn much supernatural stuff there is all over the place. How many times must demons and vampires and magic users have been caught on security cameras? Etc. And there’s been this ongoing preachy little “people refuse to believe anything that isn’t jammed down their throat” runner in Harry’s thoughts. And now it’s going to turn out that everything we thought we knew about what the mortal world knew was wrong, and basically all the main characters but Harry knew about it all along?

Sure, the suspension of disbelief is necessary here and this may be one of the thinner strands, but it’s explained in-world. Technology breaks around wizards and magic. Most monsters walk around in human form almost exclusively. Shit always goes down at night in cities where there’s lots of crime and drug use. People have extreme amounts of denial to preserve their sanity. When someone claims they saw, say, a Bigfoot, they get called crazies and mocked or locked up in the looney bin. But if you’re looking for examples where those reasons fall down, I’m sure you’ll find them…but this isn’t hard sci-fi, so choose to be bothered by it or not.

[Omniscient]

@Alessan

Because there are reportedly still another 8 books to go (5 standalones and one trilogy), and Butcher has already done his big, epic, all-hands-on-deck, Avengers Endgame -portal-scene battle; he won’t do it again. So what will he end the series with instead?

I think that number is highly fluid. IIRC it started at a planned 20 book series, then later he announced that there’d be a big 3 book trilogy to end it…making the number 22. Then Peace Talks/Battle Ground had to be split up stretching it out to 23. 25 is the last number he publicly announced, probably because it’s a round number. Who knows, it may get to 30 before we’re done.

He’s announced that the next book is called Mirror, Mirror which is going to be a multi-dimensional story where alternate-dimension Harry summons our Harry to take the fall for something. He’s hinted that there will be a time-travel plot line, not sure if this will part of the multi-dimension thing or it’s own story.

We know that there probably will be a book where Harry takes on Drakul and settles Marva’s hash, that likely needs to be a full book. Rumor has it that Harry and Marva will be allies at some point, so who knows if that’s a different plotline or part of that one.

Jim has said there is definitely going to be a big Dragon fighting book where Ferrovax will probably be the big bad or at least heavily involved.

He suggested that he wanted to write a big Professional Wrestling based book, but most people said that sounded dumb and supposedly it’s not gonna happen.

We know that the titles of the last 3 books, the big ass trilogy, are Hells Bells, Stars and Stones and Empty Night. And that will almost certainly be another kick down drag out brawl like PT/BG.

We know that every 5th book tends to be a Denarian book, so I think it’s a safe bet that book 20 will be another Marcone/Nicodemus book.

He said that he’s going to pull in some Greek/Roman mythology at some point and that seems like a topic that can be a full book, through there have been hints that One-Eye is basically Zeus but I don’t think that’s what he’s talking about.

We haven’t seen the whole Cowl/Black Council thing come to a head yet, so I have to guess that this will be a book unless it’s part of a BAT. The Margaret LeFey/Papa Raith/Lara Raith thing is still a bit of an outstanding bit of drama which could ultimately lead to a White Court civil war.

We also have heard him say that the British-accented prisoner in Demonreach will get a bunch of screentime which implies that there will be at least a partial jail-break or some kind of Demonreach plot line which may or may not be it’s own book.

Long story short, I’m pretty sure that the pattern we’ve seen so far will hold up. There will be a series of standalone “case file” books where Harry fights a big-bad. In the background, there will be machinations with the big power brokers and Harry will probably suffer more and gain a little more power and influence. There will probably be a mysterious hand directing these conflicts in gradually more obvious ways right up until the BAT. Maybe one or two of the big power structures will collapse along the way, but I don’t think we’re heading into a long slow collapse into chaos just yet. Jim has said that he pretty much always wants Harry to be out matched and out gunned, so I doubt that it’ll be him standing alone against the Outsiders. He’ll probably be the guy that hits the launch button, cuts the head off the snake, or sees the opening that turns the tide at the last minute, but I don’t think he’ll be the main force standing up against the onslaught. It’s not Jim’s style.

[echoreply]

My scrotum attempted to travel back in time.

[Infovore]

@Omniscient

He’s announced that the next book is called Mirror, Mirror which is going to be a multi-dimensional story where alternate-dimension Harry summons our Harry to take the fall for something. He’s hinted that there will be a time-travel plot line, not sure if this will part of the multi-dimension thing or it’s own story.

I’ve heard that there’s another one going to be added in before that one, because Butcher feels there needs to be at least one book to deal with all the fallout from PT/BG.

[Omniscient]

I think I saw something similar. I wonder if this will result in us getting a book faster since he’s still in the PT/BG headspace.

[Alessan]

I just hope he doesn’t fall into the George R.R. Martin death spiral of writing books to fill in the gaps between his books.

[Marvin_the_Martian]

His short stories do that.

[MaxTheVool]

@Omniscient

Sure, the suspension of disbelief is necessary here and this may be one of the thinner strands, but it’s explained in-world. Technology breaks around wizards and magic. Most monsters walk around in human form almost exclusively. Shit always goes down at night in cities where there’s lots of crime and drug use. People have extreme amounts of denial to preserve their sanity. When someone claims they saw, say, a Bigfoot, they get called crazies and mocked or locked up in the looney bin. But if you’re looking for examples where those reasons fall down, I’m sure you’ll find them…but this isn’t hard sci-fi, so choose to be bothered by it or not.

Sure, and I don’t think it would bother me at all if he didn’t ALSO throw in his snide little “people never believe anything, they’re always in denial, ha ha, they’re dumb” thoughts. I may be the only person in the world bothered by them, but people in your universe are in denial because you (the author) choose to make them so, and because you (the author) have thrown in a zillion convenient little corner cases and conveniences to allow this massive supernatural world to exist in what otherwise is basically identical to our real world. There is zero chance that that’s how people would behave if we actually did live in a world with that much supernatural stuff going on. (Quite the opposite, in fact. Look how many people believe in spirits/ghosts/magick when all of it is easily debunked nonsense.)

The world he has setup is quite fun (and I genuinely enjoy his books), but I’d rather have him just shrug his shoulders and say “eh, just go with it” rather than “…and of course people ignore all of this absolutely real stuff that is right in front of them, because they are blind morons”.

[Omniscient]

@MaxTheVool

Sure, and I don’t think it would bother me at all if he didn’t ALSO throw in his snide little “people never believe anything, they’re always in denial, ha ha, they’re dumb” thoughts.

I’m not sure where you’re getting this. I don’t recall this kind of language anywhere. Clearly you have some feelings on the subject.

[Alessan]

@Omniscient

I’m not sure where you’re getting this. I don’t recall this kind of language anywhere. Clearly you have some feelings on the subject.

There’s a variation on it - with less snarky language - about once or twice per book, if that. It’s easily overlooked.

[Omniscient]

The books are written to be consumable as a standalone narrative. Every book repeats a couple dozen bits of world building stuff. In every book were reminded Murphy is small but fierce, that the Fae are otherworldly beautiful, that technology goes on the fritz around magic, that magic can’t violate Newton’s laws, that Thomas is an annoyingly good looking Whampire, that Michael’s house is an idyllic bit of suburbia superimposed into a Chicago neighborhood, etc, etc, etc. They are all repetitive and annoying, blame the editors.

[echoreply]

@MaxTheVool

“people never believe anything, they’re always in denial, ha ha, they’re dumb”

That’s always been one of my problems with the Dresden books, and Harry Potter, and any other story set in “our world,” but secretly there is magic. In the Laundry books magic starts out as pretty small, and believably hidden from most people. As magic becomes more powerful it becomes obvious that it can’t be hidden anymore. Later books have as a plot line the mundane world responding to invasions by magical beings, and the secret of magic being out.

I think that’s were Dresden bothers me. As the books start with small magic, it’s believably hidden. As the magic gets bigger it becomes much less believable that nobody is noticing. I did like the end of Battle Ground, with the whole thing being blamed on terrorists, and an existing government agency coming in to cover it up. I can believe that, but I also believe it not working very well. Lots of conspiracy theories about what really happened, and the official version doesn’t hold up, but it’s completely unclear what actually happened.

Either way, I still enjoy the books, and will read as many more as are written.

[Bootb]

I enjoyed the book.

Having said that, however, I’m wondering/slightly concerned about where Bonnie is. I can see reasons for her absence–a near-apocalyptic battle is no place for a baby spirit, for instance–but it seems that Harry would have at least thought about her at some point. I can’t help thinking that something happened off-screen; hopefully nothing bad.

[MaxTheVool]

@echoreply

I think that’s were Dresden bothers me. As the books start with small magic, it’s believably hidden. As the magic gets bigger it becomes much less believable that nobody is noticing.

Precisely. This happens a lot with stories that start with vampires. Now, obviously, vampires don’t really make sense and couldn’t really realistically remain hidden. But… they’re clearly a supernatural being custom designed to be able to remain hidden among humans for millenia. So “there are vampires, but otherwise our world is the same” is at least within eyesight of plausible. But then, wait, in addition to vampires there are fairies, and demons, and magicions, and werewolves, etc, and STILL the public as a whole is ignorant of them. Ummmm… no.

[DPRK]

It’s been a while since I read the original book, but does it really say anywhere that all the supernatural stuff, as a whole, is secret? The stück in all the books is that all myths and legends are true, so obviously there is a lot of folklore out there already, even if it is not completely accurate. Harry himself openly advertises as a “wizard”, and even gets hired by the occasional skeptic. In Chicago alone there is a sizeable bunch of “Paranet” members (though the real wizards/fairies/dragons… cannot use computers) so clearly the Internet community is at least basically aware, and so are major organizations like the Church(es), Library of Congress/U.S. government, etc. Actually, in real life people do swear by their belief in angels, ghosts, animism, various types of magic, etc., so why would it be any different in the book?

As for ignorance, the “public as a whole” is probably unaware of dendrology, for instance, yet it very much exists. Or they may have heard of magic like rheology and quantum mechanics, but not really.

[MaxTheVool]

@DPRK

It’s been a while since I read the original book, but does it really say anywhere that all the supernatural stuff, as a whole, is secret?

Reasonable question. For instance, I doubt that the actual Chicago PD has a “special investigations” (or whatever it was called) squad, the one that Murphy worked on. That said, there are enough times in the series when the skeptical attitudes displayed by the muggles are basically identical to what a skeptical person in real life would display that I certainly feel we’re supposed to assume that the “mainstream” understanding of the supernatural is basically identical to that in our world.