BCE and CE vs BC and AD

A lot of history scholars today are using BCE instead of BC and CE instead of AD for recording dates. One book I read says BCE stands for ‘Before Common Era’ which replaces ‘Before Christ’ and CE stands for ‘Common Era’ and replaces AD.

The reasoning, according to the author, is something like this: Because of the diversity of cultures in our world today, we want to remove the mention of Christ from our dating system to avoid offending other cultures.

What does not make sense to me is, even though they are removing direct references to Christ from their dating, the dates are still reported relative to the year accepted by the Church as the year of Christ’s birth. If you do not recognize the life of Christ as the defining event in your culture, what else do you use for a historical benchmark?

I have thought of a few people and events that have touched all cultures, but I see none that stand as significant as Christ.

1)Mohammad - The Moslem culture has used his life as the basis for their dating, but the Moslem culture, while highly significant on the world stage, has not had quite as great an effect on the world today as the Western culture.

2)Budda, Confucius etc. - The same situation as Mohammad

3)Hitler, Karl Marx, other 20th century figures - the 20th century was perhaps the first century where one man could have the reach to affect the entire planet. However, I for one do not want to describe an event as ‘2000 years before Hitler’!

4)The end of the last ice age - This event shaped all cultures but how do you pin the cycles of an ice age to a given year?

My conclusion: Stick with what we have. Imperfect as it is, I can not think of a better system.

It could be said that Moslem culture actually created Western culture as we know it, because Renaissance scholars re-visited Greek and Roman science, art and history that had been preserved by the Arab civilizations, eventually ending the Medieval age and helping inspire the age of exploration and progress.

Agreed. The comments about non-Western cultures seem JUST a tad superior. You do realize that other cultures have other dating systems, right? There are dozens of them and we all manage to get along fine.

As for us in the West: we’re not going to change our dating system because I can’t imagine ANYTHING that would be a greater day-to-day inconvenience - and with no real benefit. To that end, I’m kind of annoyed by BCE/CE. The people using it aren’t “not recognizing the life of Christ,” they’re just trying to be secular. And I think it’s silly, because they’re obviously dating from the same event anyway. It’s sort of PC.

I’m an extremely secular guy and I’m not sure what else we’d date our history from either. But there’s no dispute going on about changing our dating system anyway. It’s just different names/abbreviations for the same thing.

There are many scholars who believe Jesus Christ was not born in 1 AD as was previously commonly accepted, so actually “Common Era” makes a lot of sense. (Evidence indicates Christ was born between 4 and 6 BC.) Would it make sense to say “Christ was born in 4 Before Christ”? No, not at all. Similarly, why would we choose 1 AD to be the first “Year of The Lord” (Anno Domini)? Thus, BCE / CE actually make sense, regarding Christ’s birth. Since it is inconvenient to change the numbering of years, it is most convenient to change the way we describe these years.

I should have said: Similarly, why would we choose 1 AD to be the first “Year of The Lord” (Anno Domini) when Jesus turned 5 in this year?

Sorta, but not really. Changing the name makes it appear less nonsensical, but we’re still dating from the year people decided/assumed/thought Jesus was born but likely wasn’t. It’s still dumb, it’s just unfixable.

One huge problem is that there are libraries full of books filled with numbers in them. Change the dating system and they all become obsolete. Although the textbook people might actually like that, no student could buy used textbooks but the next semester.

Actually I’d say the best thing to do is choose a number far back enough in time so that all history is on the upside of the numbers rather then the downside. By that I mean that it’s confusing that 10 years before 5 AD was 6 BC. The best solution I would think would be to choose a dating system whose zero date lies before any known history. So perhaps change 2004 into 9990 if only for the big party we’d have in 10 years.

That’s a good point. The lack of a year zero is ALSO totally silly.

If you’re going to make all the dates positive, why not just move the year 1 back 10000 years. That way, the current year would be 12004, which seems like it would prevent a lot of confusion. No one would need to ask “Is that the old year or the new year,” since '04 is '04 either way.

The only problem is for the people who have B.C. dates memorized. Instead of being founded in 753 B.C., Rome would now be founded in the year 9247. So that’s not only a totally different number, it’s a longer one.

I’m thinking historians might not like this system.

I prefer “BCE” because it sounds more sophisticated than plain old “BC.” I prefer “AD” over “CE” because the latter is too similar to “BCE”, and because Anno Domini is a cool phrase. I’m not Christian, but the whole religious background of the dating doen’t bother me.

That didn’t help much, did it?

I think it all needs updating. We should use Michael Jordan as a benchmark. Before he played would be BJ, see how that rolls off your tongue. After he started would be AJ except for his baseball perioid which would be BBall.

For the life of me I can’t figure out why any scholar would get their undies in a bunch over the use of AD or BC. Has it really offended a lot of people?

Marc

I don’t know about offensiveness, but the problem with dating everything from what was once believed to be the year of Christ’s birth is that it’s a completely arbitrary dividing line that just sort of appears in the middle of a lot of other contemporary events.

The Roman Empire, for instance, of 1 BC (or BCE) was no different than that of 2 AD (or CE), but the insertion of the dividing line there leaves the impression that something happened that year that deserves the marcation. Even if you want to argue from a Jesus uber alles standpoint, it’s not the right date anyway. At this point it’s just a numbering tradition that some are beginning to think may have outlived its usefulness.

History professors would like it if people understood more about history, and are beginning to realize that having to remember which not-very-different events fall on one side of the line and which on the other is a pain in the neck for students.

It would greatly simplify matters, beyond a few years of logistical snafus*, if everything that happened during traceable history were dated from some actaully momentous event. The last retreat of the glaciers is a good candidate, although I’m certain that real historians could offer a string of other attractive dates, as well.

*Historians must already deal with a variety of dating systems. Referring to texts using the AD/BC system would simply be one more.

I agree it would generally be silly to get offended by other people using the traditional “B.C.” and “A.D.” terms; on the other hand, it would also be silly to get offended if someone wants to use “B.C.E.” and “C.E.” instead.

Some arbitrary point of the start of the Renaissance would work well if you want to call it the “common era” - so you have prehistory, ancient, classical, medieval, common eras.

Another option could be the start of the ancient era with the invention of writing in Sumeria, c. 3000 BCE.

I agree that it would be nice to have a “year zero” and make it a vector instead of a line, but we will always need to refer to things as happening very long ago. Also, it is increasingly hard to date things the further back you go. It starts getting really fuzzy before (or after, or whatever) 1000 BCE.

In any case, the point is moot. As someone mentioned above, changing this would be a monumentous task, involving rewriting virtually every computer program and historical (and many scientific) book in existence. O_o

Not gonna happen. Maybe if there is a cataclysmic world-changing event, it will change, because people will simply start referring to it as “26 years since… (alien invasion/comet strike/mass extinction/nukes going off/horribly infections virus released/whatever)”

“The eighteenth day of July, in the 31st Year of the Dope…”

1973 would of course be the Year Zero.

Though it would instantly create a Y12K panic! Wheel those COBOL programmers back in here! :smiley:

I agree with those who say the system is unfixable. The current system was, IIRC, begun in 8th century and has been used ever since it has a heck of a lot of tradition behind it.

People don’t like a dating system based on Jezus. I can understand that, but too bad, get over it. As another poster pointed out, “BCE/CE” is just a superficial change that doesn’t change the basis for the numbers. It’s a political sop to non-Christians, nothing more.

“BCE/CE” only takes a step away from the history behind the dating system; it is obfuscation only. If we are going to use those dates, we might as well have a mnemonic to go along with them. So the system should stay as is.

Which system?

A.D. 2004 and 399 B.C. (the original system)

2004 A.D. and 399 B.C. (the corrupted, but more frequently used, system)

2004 C.E. and 399 B.C.E. (the system in use among historians and scripture scholars since the 1950s)

Mnemonmic? What mnemonic is associated with A.D. (which I have several times heard identified as “After Death”)?

Since European culture is currently dominant across Europe, North and South America, and Australia, with significant inroads in Asia and Africa, we get to have a somewhat default position of naming the dates for things like commerce and treaties. I would say that since C.E. and B.C.E. are actually easier to remember (in English) than vaguely misinterpreted Latin, they make the most sense (to the extent that any convention has to “make sense”).

In these parts the Kingdom runs on Hejra time. It is now 1427H or so. When we have to refer to the other system (for the connivence of outsiders mostly) we note it as 2004G.