Superman’s immortality is variable-canon. DC ONe Million is in-continuity, and he was alive in the 853rd century. As was J’onn.
Plastic Man was turned to stone, and broken into pieces, centuries in the past during the JLA’s timejaunt to recover Aquaman. They recovered him in the present, after the petrification wore off - Firestorm having had to track down tiny Plastic-Man bits all over the globe -and they reassembled him.
It didn’t do his mind any favors, but he’s one of the most indestructible people on the planet. He didn’t age at all, either.
I wouldn’t count that as immortality. Generally, being turned to stone stops all biological processes. Thus, Plas was simply in stasis. Mon-El has lived through ten centuries, but I would not classify him as immortal for the same reason. He spent most of that time in the Phantom Zone, which halted all biological processes including the lead poisoning (Daxamites are affected by lead in the same way Kryptonians are affected by Green Kryptonite) which was killing him.
Nope. It’s been a while, but IIRC Larry Trainor (who had stolen the NEB away from Val) was injured. The NEB absorbed a female African-American doctor at the hospital where Trainor was admitted and the three beings became one.
In the Sandman books, Cain and Abel said that they preceeded humanity and originally had different forms. Does that disqualify them, or is that non-canon?
Neither. They’re not human, but their original form is, presumably, mortal. It’s possible they’re not, but unlikely. Cain and Abel are unusual cases - members of a mortal race who still live on in the Dreaming - for whatever reason.
Being human isn’t important, being of a mortal race is. Swampy’s immortal - functionally, at least - by the nature of what he’s become. J’onn is, if not immortal, extremely long-lived, because that’s the way of Martians. The Metamorphae are long-lived, though not immortal, because of the nature of what Metamorphae are. Cliff Steele (Robotman) and Vic Stone (Cyborg) don’t make the list, despite the fact they could, theoretically, keep their mechanical bodies functioning/keep upgrading them forever (and Cliff’s surviving one apparently susccessful attempt at killing him), because that’s the nature of being mechanical.
If Superman were to prove consistantly immortal (the only indication of it I know of is DC 1,000,000, which is contradicted by his aging in Kingdom Come and his apparent non-existance in the 30th Century), he would count because Kryptonians aren’t immortal by nature.
Cain and Abel arguably count (assuming they’re still what they were before, not souls in their afterlives, or dreams), because they SHOULD be mortal. That middle caveat is what makes them iffy entries.
All of the Captain Marvel family, when in power up mode, are immortal. They might get it from any of the immortal Gods whose powers they recieve (Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Mercury), but they specifically get if from Achilles. I know that it’s officially the Courage of Achilles, but it’s been generally accepted that his gift is the source of their invulnerability (just as flight is assumed to come from Mercury), and by extension, immortality.
Number Six: Except, of course, Captain Marvel is universally regarded as the World’s Mightiest Mortal. The great wizard Shazam might be seen as immortal before he deliberately killed himself under that suspended block, but the Marvel family? Iffy. Furthermore, while their powers are 2/3rds divine, the last 1/3rd is fully mortal: Solomon and Achilles. In that regard, he’s like the Sumerian hero Gilgamesh. Invulnerability is not the same thing as immortality.
Yllaria. IIRC, when Matthew the Raven asked how their Biblical origins fit in with evolution and dinosaurs, Abel replied, “Oh, well this wasn’t on Earth.” Cain spouted off how none of them were even remotely human… then. Since then, they’ve become human enough to be considered humanity’s pregenitors. I’ll quote an annotated Sandman website that noted that, “it is the nature of storytellers and stories to conform to their audiences.”
They resemble the fairy tale characters in Willingham’s Vertigo series, FABLES-- as long as they’re beloved by humanity, they can never really die. But whereas the FABLES characters come out of a Eurasian oral tradition that is mostly a few hundred years old at best (excepting the Big Bad Wolf archetype, and various motifs like Beauty Marrying Well and Youngest Sons), Cain and Abel come out of the Judeo-Christian Creation oral mythology that’s obviously much, much older.
Cain and Abel work for the Sandman, but they believe themselves God’s Creations. God originally created Man to be mortal. It was eating the fruit of the Tree of Life that made Adam and Eve have knowledge of Good and Evil and to live forever, cast out of Eden. Perhaps this is where Cain and Abel’s immortality derives.
Towards the end of his series, they were hinting strongly that he was immortal (or, at least continually rencarnating) before his encounter with nanotech. Vandal Savage was an old enemy.
The nanotech alone isn’t nearly as impressive. One of the doctors who used it on Mitch tried it on himself, and found himself merely unable to die (he couldn’t regenerate or get new powers). Preseumably, it’s Mitch’s pre-existing immortal/reincarnation abilities that gave it the extra oomp. It was never revealed exactly what or who Mitch was (besides the fact that he wasn’t the Immortal man, despite earlier hints to the contrary), so he may not be eligible at all.
And while he can be defeated, well, that’s his schtick! You can kill him, but he gets back up again. You can incapacitate him by putting him in a state of continually dying, but he could, theoretically, break through or be rescued. If Ra’s (who is dependent on being placed in a Lazarus pit) counts, then so does Mitch Shelly.
Well, that’s not why he’s an iffy entry. He’s debatable because I’m not sure if he’s IMMORTAL - ie, assuming he’s not immortal naturally, will the nano-tech revive him if he dies of old age? Most of the immortals on the list can be killed - but left alone, they’d all live forever - even if they had to work at it a little.
That’s a tag line, not a description of their abilities. Daredevil isn’t actually incapable of feeling the emotion fear, but calling him the man without fear makes for nice cover copy. Mortal in this case means human; Fawcett was emphasizing that their flying, invulnerable, super-strong, caped man wasn’t a alien, and thus didn’t infringe on DC’s Superman trademark.
The Marvels are human in the same way as Wonder Woman and the Amazons; they’re human, and can concievably be killed. But, like the Amazons, they’re also immortal in the sense of the OP, in that they don’t age and will not die short of being killed through massive trauma
But Achilles’ invulnerability was divine in nature, and it can be argued that Solomon’s wisdom was also. That, however is beside the point. The powers are not averaged, they are cumulative; the Marvels would only have to get immortality from any one of their benefactors for it to apply.
Achilles’ style invulnerability would be. We age because our bodies decay with use; the parts eventually wear out. A body that cannot suffer injury and is immune to poison and disease would not age. Cannot be killed + doesn’t age = immortal.
Number Six. My compliments on a superbly written rebuttal, factually erroneous and critically flawed though it may be. I particularly enjoyed the “That’s a tagline!” comeback. In that, you’re completely correct, and shame on me for stooping to using that as a defense. Bravo.
You’re still wrong, but… bravo. (grinning icon)
Captain Marvel is a mighty mortal, 2/3rds godlike in terms of omnipotence and arguably omnipresence. Superman is fully godlike in his powers’ scope: omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Because Marvel is limited in his senses (he lacks every one of Superman’s vision powers, super-hearing, super-tactile sensitivity and super-smell) he is not omniscient. Wise? Sure. But wisdom traditionally comes from experience and insight, not raw sensory awareness.
You’re familiar with the phrase, “Achilles Heel?” Achilles’ invulnerability was largely supernatural and sacrosanct, not divine: shortly after he was born, his mother (albiet a sea-goddess) dipped him in the Underworld river of Styx by holding him by the heel of his foot, and its sacred waters washed over his body and provided his invulnerability except for this legendary and fatal weak spot where she held him.
This also neatly underlines the weakness in your otherwise compelling second argument: why we age, why we die, and how a body that is immune to disease, poison and injury should logically not be able to die. I tend to agree with that idea and always wanted to see it become canon with heroes such as Superman, Wonder Woman, Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four, etc. For years now, I’ve wanted to take a crack at writing Marvel Comics’ Luke Cage and explore the upper limits of the whole concept of invulnerability, with the eventual realization that Luke Cage – Power Man – is quite probably a true immortal.
In Achilles’ case he wasn’t precisely immune to injury at all, he was just damned hard to injure. Once his tiny physical flaw was found and exploited (a poisoned arrow shot by Paris), he died from the infected wound and poison like anyone else.
Well, if Achilles wasn’t immortal, than what of the other gods/mortals that make up the divine mantra, Shazam? Traditionally “Shazam” has stood for 20-something different beings. With Captain Marvel and Captain Marvel, Jr., it’s stood for Solomon’s wisdom, Hercules’ strength, Atlas’ stamina, Zeus’ power, Achilles’ invulnerability and Mercury’s speed (and presumably flight). In Mary Marvel’s case, a bunch of Greco-Roman goddesses and in Black Adam’s case, Egyptain deities/cultural heroes. None of these cases is the gift of immortality specifically derived. You could validly argue that immortality is an implied gift by one or any of these gods only if the Marvel Family seems exceptionally long-lived by natural means – but that’s not the case.
In DCU mythos, the Marvel family has only been around until shortly after the start of this compressed 12 or 14 year timeline began.
Black Adam survived from Egypt’s first dynasty to the 21st century only because the wizard Shazam dispatched him through time to another dimension, where he remained in limbo until Sivana’s dimension-piercing machine brought him to our world.
Of all the people associated with the Shazam mythos, the only immortal among them was probably the wizard himself.
Again, the Marvels are mortal.
As an aside, I’ve often wondered: does Captain Marvel (and by extension, Junior) share Achilles’ vulnerability as well? Could Superman take them both out with well placed zaps of heat vision in their Achilles heel? Batman would know.
The negative energy being was driven out of Val by the bomb that was detonated in the Invasion series. Larry, who was in the hospital was being visited by his Doctor (an African American woman) the negative energy being appeared and revealed that it had a consciousness of it’s own. It picked up the two and merged them into Rebus
I’m now almost 30 books into Morrison’s run of Doom Patrol (which is absolutely…mindblowing), and Rebis is definitely…a unique…being. How many people can make ‘I was having sex with myself. I’ll tell you about it later.’ work?
Well, in that case we’ve seen him alive and kicking in the 853rd century. Also he has fuzzy memories of past conflicts with vandal Savage. So, yeah, I’d say he’s ageless to boot.
This from someone who clings to the irrational fanboy belief that Batman beats anybody if he’s prepared?
Depends upon which version of the story you believe. The one you cite is the later version; originally Achilles was annointed by his mother with Ambrosia, which, being the food of the gods, makes anybody who consumes it into a god. Thus, divine by definition; Achilles in this version was a demigod like Hercules.
However, the version you cite is the more common one. The River Styx separated the land of the living from Hades. The Greek gods most sacred oath was to swear on the River Styx, and those who did not keep their oath would lose their voice for nine years. The river was named after Zeus’ first daughter, who was the first to answer his call to fight the Titans.
Named after a God, worshipped by the Gods, exists in the realm of a God, posessing the power to render the Gods mute and grant men godlike abilities. The river is without a doubt divine, and thus so are the powers it grants.
Wonder Woman, being an Amazon is already well established as being immortal, as is Plastic Man, who can be blown into a few million pieces, lie around on the ocean floor (conscious the whole time) for three thousand years, and be reassembled without any apparent physical harm.
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For years now, I’ve wanted to take a crack at writing Marvel Comics’ Luke Cage and explore the upper limits of the whole concept of invulnerability, with the eventual realization that Luke Cage – Power Man – is quite probably a true immortal.
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Not all that familiar with Power Man except for his brief stint in the Fantastic Four.
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In Achilles’ case he wasn’t precisely immune to injury at all, he was just damned hard to injure. Once his tiny physical flaw was found and exploited (a poisoned arrow shot by Paris), he died from the infected wound and poison like anyone else.
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Paris shot the arrow, but it was guided by Apollo. It took divine intervention, literally, to kill Achilles.
His heel and ankle were his only vulnerable parts; everything else that was immersed was immune to all forms of injury. Had he been dipped a second time to cover his heel, his entire body would have been completely invulnerable. The poisoned arrow managed to find the only part of him that was still mortal.
As I understand it, the female gods origin for Mary was Fawcett; in DCU, the three Marvels have the same benefactors, but share the power pool. If two are powered up at once, they each have half the power. All three would have a third each. Or is this Pre-Crisis and has been revised?
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In DCU mythos, the Marvel family has only been around until shortly after the start of this compressed 12 or 14 year timeline began.
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In Kingdom Come, set some 20 years in the future, Superman is noticably aged, yet Captain Marvel retains his 30ish appearance, not having aged at all.
It would be interesting to see Mary or Jr. in the future, to see if they grow to adulthood or stay teens.
In that they are human, I agree.
That specific vulnerability came from Achilles’ spefic origin. Not having the same origin, I doubt the vulnerability would be shared.
The partial invulnerability could easily be a by product or combination of Atlas, Hercules, and Zeus’ gifts. Hercules’ strength, for example, would by necessity need to include invulnerability sufficient for the body to withstand the internal forces created by exercising that strength. And Atlas. Captain Marvel has the stamina of Atlas, which is infinite. This implies that the muscles never suffer fatigue, which is to say, they do not become damaged with use.
And the “power of Zeus” is pretty vague. Does it just mean the ability to call forth magic lightning, or does it include other things such as invulnerabilty?